I am starting to think going to Iraq was a mistake

MMI | 4/30/04 | MDP

[Check_Your_Premises]

As an avid supporter of the President's Iraq policies, the last few days have been difficult for me. The number of casualties seemed to reach a "critical mass" for me. I found myself simply not caring to sacrifice anymore of our brave soldiers for Iraqi independence and democracy. Screw 'em.

I was not sure why I began to feel this way. As I said I am an avid supporter of the plan to bring an oasis of freedom and liberty to the 12th century toilet that is the middle east. It seemed to me that if we are to end terrorism we have to destroy the sources, which are the failed states and ideology of that region.

Why not? We have succeeded at such things in the past. We transformed post war Germany and Japan into thriving and peaceful democracies. Unfortunately, we have also failed at such things in the past. Of course, I am speaking of the war that Teddy Kennedy's brother got us into.

The one problem I had with liberating Iraq from Saddam's clutches is that we were removing one of the most important steps to the forming of a successful democracy. The successful overthrow of tyranny is a process that produces the type of leaders that are required to bring the successful transition from tyranny to liberal democracy. By liberating Iraq, for the Iraqis we were not allowing their "Founding Fathers" to become. It is of course worth noting that such leaders may never have been produced.

It seems to me now that the war in Iraq suffers from the same fatal flaw as the war in Vietnam. I may be speculating here, but it seems we simply cared more than the South Vietnamese, that their nation remain free. No American should be expected to die defending the home of another not willing to do the same. In the same sense we seem to care more about the freedom of the Iraqi people than they do themselves. This is why I don't really care anymore. If they truly cared or understood their fate, they would be dying ten to our one. And in that case I think the American people would support them steadfastly. God knows I would.

So what was different about our success stories, Japan and Germany. Well we basically bombed the entire nation back into the stone age. I think their civilians were probably so glad that we weren't going to execute our own "final solution" to the "Japanese and German question", that they were willing to do whatever we said. It is also worth noting that in annhilating their armies we effectively removed any person who would be opposed to our efforts. As George Will put it recently, they "knew they were defeated".

So the question is if:
1) we care more about the freedom of the Iraqi people than they do (something we could only have known in hindsight), and
2)we are not willing to wage total war until all opposition is removed,

than how can we possibly win there?

Well I think you see where I am getting at. General Sherman would probably agree with me. However since we do not have the will to fight this way, it is clear that we cannot win until that fact changes. What could bring such a change of will about? Unfortunately, I think we are victims of our own success in preventing further terrorist attacks. Until every man, woman, child, and leftist acutely feels that they are in grave danger of death at the hands of these murderers, America will not be ready to do what she must to win this war.

Until we are ready, maybe we should hold off on any further "imperialist" adventures in the world's excretory regions.

Semper Fidelis

MDP

[B.O. Plenty]

It's bullshit. MDP has been listening to the idiot Imus, the idiot Democrats and even the idiot Libertarians (big L). The point of the "war" is to keep radical Islam from doing what they said they were going to do...namely kill all infidels and impose Worldwide Islamic rule. We are in a fight for our way of life....I will not live in the 12Th century in the dirt!.

So...where are we going to start eliminating radical Islam?....downtown New York? Paris?.....no, the start was in Afganistan and Iraq. Where else we go is to be determined.....probably where radicals show up, don't you think.

The President said on the first day after 9-11 that this war will last for a long time and we will not quit. I expect and urge him to do what he said....If, God forbid, Kerry or some other liberal is elected, then the United Islamic States of America could become a reality.

Picture your beautiful daughters or grandaughters in burkas, ignorant and slaves.

[.cnI redruM]

>>>>>The data to support my assertion that we care more about the Iraqi's freedom than they do is that I don't see them fighting and dying in droves to win it. I hear stories of them running from the fight. I don't see responsible Iraqi leadership developing.

Without knowledge of what is required to develop a competent army, I'd be inclined to think in a similar vein. However, there are certain aspects of this that you should be aware of...

1) You don't develop a new Iraqi Army overnight. It requires 18 Months of training before an officer is ready to lead a US Infantry Unit. (OBC, Airborne School, Ranger School and then specialty training depending on the unit assignment such as Mortar Leaders' Basic Course, Bradley Commanders' Basic Course etc).

It takes about 12 - 15 months to train the EM's to an acceptable level of MOS proficiency. (Basic, followed by AIT, followed by specialty training for some infantry MOS.) My point is that the Iraqis did exactly what most untrained armies did. They ran like no one's business. That doesn't tell you whether they valued their freedom.

Secondly, comparing Al-Sadr ability to operate in two or three cities to the ability of Tory militiamen to own an entire colony is a flawed analogy. Remember that British forces spent their winters in Philadelphia in comfort while the Continental Army drilled at Valley Forge. Certainly, the Loyalist/British forces enjoyed significant civilian support in Philadelphia.

I commend to your reading list "Oliver Wiswell" by Kenneth Roberts. It would significantly expand your base of knowledge regarding the Tory forces during the Revolutionary War.

[blueski]

"Sooner or later we are going to have to announce that time limit. If the Iraqis don't seize their own future then we should pull back away from the cities and let them slug it out"

This appears to be our new mission in Iraq...it is crazy IMO...it is exactly the kind of action that is going to allow a whole bunch of states within Iraq to grow and become terrorist farms. Let's do what we do whenever we unseat a government...put in a powerful new leader, who may well be as bad as Sadaam, and let him rule with an iron fist, but who will be on our side for at least a few decades until we start arming their opposition. I'm not being cynical, I'm serious...if Iraq isn't ready for democracy, and in a place like this I agree it is a lot to swallow, give them something they can swallow.

But we can never walk away..unless we microchip every citizen there for world monitoring...because a new Osama and co. has been born there somewhere...

[Squantos]

Cowboy up.........war is hell trust me. We've left things unfinished before because of armed arm chair opinions and it resulted in a waste of lives spent in the original effort. Trust this to those professionals in the DOD. That goes for the polidiots who confuse authority with ability an get troops on the ground killed. Let the soldiers soldier.

Support them with your words , deeds , votes, and the care package or two. We do our part , they'll do their part. Shout down the socialists and their presstitute supporters who drive the commie huggin nuthins with a agenda to ruin this country.

Stay safe !

[SirAllen]

43,220 deaths on our highways last year according to NHTSA, now that's a mass

Yeah, let's see old Ted read that list of names on air...maybe we'll all stop driving.

[myself6]

Thoughts?

Whatever...

Some here have been kind to you and given you the benefit of the doubt. I however, will do no such thing.

There are many possible reasons for your writing this ignorant screed. Among them being that you have always been against this war. You did not "check your premises" before posting OR you intentionally premised your ideas on faulty ground to forward a faulty argument.

Again, whatever...

Do us all a favor and dig a hole to crawl into while real men do what needs to be done. We will let you know when it is safe to come out, but until then, just shut up and hide.

This war is NOT about bringing "democracy" to the middle east (whether you, the media, the administration, etc understand that or not) This war is about keeping the fighting "over there" (wherever there may be) and NOT over here (in the US ie. 9/11). This war is also about the extermination of militant islam and should be about the extermination of their socialist enablers (but we can take care of them later).

Boiled down to the most basic form, its about the fact that either we die or they do. Either your with us or against us. Either you support the war to save your life or you do not. There is no middle ground in this, nor can there be, nor should there be. Some believe that it is better to remain "thoughtful" or keep an "open mind" or exhibit restraint when it comes to this war. They are ALL wrong, dead wrong. There are others who use those arguments to achieve their goals of fragmenting support for the war on jihadis.

Understand this very simple concept. Victory in this war (including the BATTLE of Iraq) is not declared at the "democratization" of the middle east, it is declared when the very last militant jihadi spits blood into the dirt as he exhales for the last time. Then, and ONLY then is victory declared. We may lose 10x the amount of men from todays numbers but it will be worth it because we will go on via their sacrifice.

I do not issue these words from an unattached viewpoint. I served 8 years in the military between 1990 and 1998, If called upon I would have risked my life for the protection of my fellow citizens and more importantly, the ideals of the constitution. My son ( now a freshman in high school) is itching to join the military, and I will NOT attempt to talk him out of it. This war will probably still be being fought by the time he joins (either Here in the US or over there, depending on if a socialist democrat is allowed to win the presidency) an if he dies in battle I WILL be devastated, as will my entire family, but that will not change the FACT that this war MUST be won at any cost.

Weak minded people do not win wars. You , through your posted screed, have declared yourself weak of mind, conviction and purpose.

Go away.

Hide.

Let the strong save your ass from the jihadis and yourself.

[AmishDude]

OK, and you are . . .?

[Check_Your_Premises]

My point is that the Iraqis did exactly what most untrained armies did. They ran like no one's business. That doesn't tell you whether they valued their freedom.

Ok that is a good point. Even our Continental Army wasn't worth a damn until they were properly trained at VF.

What about the fact that NO responsible leadership is materializing? For me, that is probably the most significant problem. What a bunch of clowns.

I mean seriously all things being equal, do you really give a rats ass about these losers?

[Hollywoodghost]

Agree with you--He who would be free must strike the first blow. They must want to be free. Til then, all we can give them is a new tyrant who isn't a nut like Saddam. Maybe these people need a King with a constitution rather than a two party democracy. Something that will not be full democracy but not State terrorism like the last Government.
Till then we are just wasting lives. Cut off Saddams head and declare victory and come home. If they kill each other or are invaded by Iran--so what? Coundn't happen to a nicer country.

[Alberta's Child]

If Iraq had nothing to do with Al Qaeda, why did Al Qaeda bomb Spain to get their troops out Iraq?

This is certainly a worthwhile point. I'll post two key responses to it:

1. I would have had no problem believing that there was a link between al-Qaeda and Iraq, but I am aware of no evidence to this point that would link the two. In fact, this administration has gone out of its way to make the point today that there is no connection between the two.

2. To this day, nobody outside the intelligence communities in Spain and other Western countries knows for sure what the Madrid bombing was all about. The incident certainly didn't bear any resemblance to a typical al-Qaeda attack -- and was carried out by people from an Islamic country (Morrocco) that already has some kind of dispute with Spain that has nothing to do with al-Qaeda. Anyone who speaks Arabic can pick up a phone and credibly claim responsibility for an attack of that sort.

[Sam the Sham]

Frankly, I don't see the "untrained" insurgents running like everyone's business. They are willing to fight and die. The Iraqi Civil Defense Corps was not. And Baathist Iraq was a totalitatian police state with an enormous conscript army so there is no shortage of men in Iraq with military/weapons training.

And as for the Tories, Philadelphia had to be evacuated because the British could not maintain their overland supply lines to New York and shipping had to be diverted to counter France's entry into the war. That's what Tories would have been for. Controlling the overland supply lines and patrolling Soprano-land. They couldn't do it.

[Alberta's Child]

What I find very interesting is that this administration's approach in Iraq is remarkably similar to the Democratic approach in most of this country's urban rat-holes, in which the inhabitants of the region in question are treated like stunted, infantile people who cannot (and will never) fend for themselves.

What's ironic here is that we now have a Cabrini-Green Housing Project on our hands -- with 25-30 million residents living in it.

[RSmithOpt]

Excellent Point! We (Americans) want to live a life of freedom and with an opportunity for the pursuit of life, liberty, and justice. Those in Al Qaeda want total power and control to force us into a life of fear, servitude and Islam. Look at the Taliban and how they changed the lives of Afghani women and children.

[ruoflaw]

when the going gets tough,The Tough Get Going! Winners never Quit and quitters never win!

[Hollywoodghost]

This doen't wash--The we fight them there or we will have to fight them here--is a crock. We shouldn't be there. We shouldn't be in Germany or Japan as well(not now). If they want to fight us here--GOOD--Then we can ambush them as they drive on the freeways. Iraq isn't a real enemy--they can't get us (outside of some terrorist acts). Lets pick on someone our own size--China or Russia or United Europe. Lets stop worring about re-building (we haven't rebuilt Serbia have we?) and if Iraqi women have rights, and start thinking about what is in it for the US.

[KC_for_Freedom]

Shout down the socialists and their presstitute supporters who drive the commie huggin nuthins with a agenda to ruin this country.

I will say your last line again, if the war effort is causing second thoughts, it is be the media has conditioned us to:
(a) believe we can have the desired effect without the loss of life (I.E. Kosovo) and that if the war dead are lined up and displayed to the American peopl we will collapse in our grief (I.E. Kopple)

These things should not happen, and the internet is our only tool in keeping up the faith and the support. And our prayers for our leadership that they make the best decisions.

[Check_Your_Premises]

Um what if they want to fight us here with a nuke in downtown Manhatten.

One wonderful side effect that I failed to mention in my post is that we are getting to kill these jag-offs by the bushel.

[aruanan]

As an avid supporter of the President's Iraq policies, the last few days have been difficult for me. The number of casualties seemed to reach a "critical mass" for me. I found myself simply not caring to sacrifice anymore of our brave soldiers for Iraqi independence and democracy. Screw 'em.

I was not sure why I began to feel this way.

Obviously hasn't bothered to do much deep thinking about anything: "have been difficult for me," "seemed," "simply not caring," "not sure," "feel this way." Feeling always seems much more immediate and real than thought even though it often is, at best, a reaction based on unexamined presuppositions.

[Cold Heat]

The vast majority of our combat dead was not really caused by combat, but by terroristic acts of violence and Palestinian type suicide attacks.

If we leave the area, the attacks will simply come home to us. Just like they do in Israel.

It if far preferable to fight this as an AWAY game, then to leave and let it become a HOME coming!

It will do exactly that and soon.

Our embassies would be bombed, our American based companies will be hit and tourists will be killed in large numbers.

Sound familiar?????????

It should, because that is the historical information that resulted from timid responses to this situation. We must be united and set to take this to it's conclusion, no matter how long or how much it costs.

Our future and our present depends on what we do today.

[.cnI redruM]

>>>>>What about the fact that NO responsible leadership is materializing? For me, that is probably the most significant problem. What a bunch of clowns.

OK, you've offered yet another unsupported rationalization. If a group of people is given no responsibility, how do you know whether their leadership is responsible or not.

What prompts you to call these people clowns? They've drafted a constitution in under a year. The best and brightest of the EU were unable to produce in a similar time frame.

>>>>I mean seriously all things being equal, do you really give a rats ass about these losers?

On a personal level, I've never sat down and drank beer and played dominoes with members of the Iraqi population. I haven't exchanged Birthday Cards with them either. (Oops, I guess I just disregarded that whole serious ceteris paribus constraint. It's Friday, and I'm likely to drop a couple of shooters and get wide.) So, no I don't give any rodent's posterior about the benighted masses of Al-Kaf or Najaf.

Did anyone care about the Mujahadeen after the Soviets pulled back? Mullah Omar did. So did OBL. Nature abhors a vacuum. A vacuum is precisely what we would leave in Iraq. In accordance with your second premise from post #1 (remember post #1?), the olive drab veto mentioned earlier is no more tenable than the threat of our people already over there. The pussy with his boots on the ground is no more or less of a threat than the pussy 2K miles away.

The entire scenario of what happened in Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal should inform how we proceed in Iraq. We had better be ready to accept the consequences of leaving them completely to there own devices if we cut and run like cowards.