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My point is that the Iraqis did exactly what most untrained armies did. They ran like no one's business. That doesn't tell you whether they valued their freedom.

Ok that is a good point. Even our Continental Army wasn't worth a damn until they were properly trained at VF.

What about the fact that NO responsible leadership is materializing? For me, that is probably the most significant problem. What a bunch of clowns.

I mean seriously all things being equal, do you really give a rats ass about these losers?

>>>>>What about the fact that NO responsible leadership is materializing? For me, that is probably the most significant problem. What a bunch of clowns.

OK, you've offered yet another unsupported rationalization. If a group of people is given no responsibility, how do you know whether their leadership is responsible or not.

What prompts you to call these people clowns? They've drafted a constitution in under a year. The best and brightest of the EU were unable to produce in a similar time frame.

>>>>I mean seriously all things being equal, do you really give a rats ass about these losers?

On a personal level, I've never sat down and drank beer and played dominoes with members of the Iraqi population. I haven't exchanged Birthday Cards with them either. (Oops, I guess I just disregarded that whole serious ceteris paribus constraint. It's Friday, and I'm likely to drop a couple of shooters and get wide.) So, no I don't give any rodent's posterior about the benighted masses of Al-Kaf or Najaf.

Did anyone care about the Mujahadeen after the Soviets pulled back? Mullah Omar did. So did OBL. Nature abhors a vacuum. A vacuum is precisely what we would leave in Iraq. In accordance with your second premise from post #1 (remember post #1?), the olive drab veto mentioned earlier is no more tenable than the threat of our people already over there. The pussy with his boots on the ground is no more or less of a threat than the pussy 2K miles away.

The entire scenario of what happened in Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal should inform how we proceed in Iraq. We had better be ready to accept the consequences of leaving them completely to there own devices if we cut and run like cowards.