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>>>>>The data to support my assertion that we care more about the Iraqi's freedom than they do is that I don't see them fighting and dying in droves to win it. I hear stories of them running from the fight. I don't see responsible Iraqi leadership developing.

Without knowledge of what is required to develop a competent army, I'd be inclined to think in a similar vein. However, there are certain aspects of this that you should be aware of...

1) You don't develop a new Iraqi Army overnight. It requires 18 Months of training before an officer is ready to lead a US Infantry Unit. (OBC, Airborne School, Ranger School and then specialty training depending on the unit assignment such as Mortar Leaders' Basic Course, Bradley Commanders' Basic Course etc).

It takes about 12 - 15 months to train the EM's to an acceptable level of MOS proficiency. (Basic, followed by AIT, followed by specialty training for some infantry MOS.) My point is that the Iraqis did exactly what most untrained armies did. They ran like no one's business. That doesn't tell you whether they valued their freedom.

Secondly, comparing Al-Sadr ability to operate in two or three cities to the ability of Tory militiamen to own an entire colony is a flawed analogy. Remember that British forces spent their winters in Philadelphia in comfort while the Continental Army drilled at Valley Forge. Certainly, the Loyalist/British forces enjoyed significant civilian support in Philadelphia.

I commend to your reading list "Oliver Wiswell" by Kenneth Roberts. It would significantly expand your base of knowledge regarding the Tory forces during the Revolutionary War.

My point is that the Iraqis did exactly what most untrained armies did. They ran like no one's business. That doesn't tell you whether they valued their freedom.

Ok that is a good point. Even our Continental Army wasn't worth a damn until they were properly trained at VF.

What about the fact that NO responsible leadership is materializing? For me, that is probably the most significant problem. What a bunch of clowns.

I mean seriously all things being equal, do you really give a rats ass about these losers?

Frankly, I don't see the "untrained" insurgents running like everyone's business. They are willing to fight and die. The Iraqi Civil Defense Corps was not. And Baathist Iraq was a totalitatian police state with an enormous conscript army so there is no shortage of men in Iraq with military/weapons training.

And as for the Tories, Philadelphia had to be evacuated because the British could not maintain their overland supply lines to New York and shipping had to be diverted to counter France's entry into the war. That's what Tories would have been for. Controlling the overland supply lines and patrolling Soprano-land. They couldn't do it.