What does the Bible actually say about being gay?

BBC ^ | October 23, 2003 | BBC

[ejdrapes]

What does the Bible actually say about being gay?

Confused how two groups of church-goers can have such conflicting views about whether it's OK to be gay?

Both sides of the debate about homosexuality in the church, which threatens to split the worldwide Anglican church, hold their views sincerely and after much study. So how can their views be so contradictory?

The Bible makes very few mentions of homosexuality - lesbianism isn't mentioned at all in the Old Testament - and as the examples below show, interpretations of the verses that do exist differ hugely.

Following each of the verses below is a brief illustration of what a hardline pro- and anti-gay position might be. (Most Christians hold views somewhere in between these two stances.)

An illustration of the division can be seen by what either side might say about the friendship in the Old Testament between David and Jonathan. One verse reads: "I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; dear and delightful you were to me; your love for me was wonderful, surpassing the love of women."

PRO-GAY A pro-gay position might be that this is a clear indication that King David had a gay relationship, and to pretend otherwise is naive.

ANTI-GAY An anti-gay opinion might be that the friendship between the two men was exactly that - a very close and loyal allegiance.

Similarly, the tale of Sodom is often debated. In it, Lot has two angels staying in his house. The men of Sodom surrounded the house. "They called to Lot and asked him where the men were who had entered his house that night. 'Bring them out,' they shouted, 'so that we might have intercourse with them.'"

To protect his visitors from an act which Lot describes as "wicked", he offers the crowd his two virgin daughters instead. The crowd are not satisfied and break the door down - the angels then make the intruders blind and Sodom is eventually destroyed by "fire and brimstone".

ANTI-GAY An anti-gay argument might say this story demonstrates the immorality of homosexuality, as has been accepted for generations, hence the term sodomy. Elsewhere in Genesis, God says of the men: "Their sin is very grave." It's an example of behaviour degenerating.

PRO-GAY Of course the men's behaviour was wicked, but it was wicked because it's a tale of sexual assault and rape. When Jesus mentions Sodom, hundreds of years later, it appears to be in a context of a discussion of hospitality, rather than one of sexual morality.

There are several verses in the Bible which are similarly contested - there are however a much smaller number of seemingly clear statements. The most famous of them is probably from Leviticus: "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; that is an abomination."

ANTI-GAY An anti-gay position would be that this line is unambiguous. It is also repeated elsewhere in the book. The speaker of the words is God, so this is an explicit indication that homosexuality is wrong in God's eyes. It was one of the sins that justified God in giving the land of Canaan to the Israelites

PRO-GAY A pro-gay argument might say that other verses in the same book forbid a wide range of sexual activities, including having sex with a woman who is having her period. This is an indication that the passage embodies specific cultural values rather than God's law.

There is some debate about how relevant rules in the Old Testament are to Christians. Some would say they are binding, since Jesus said he did not come to abolish the old laws. Others would say that Jesus set Christians free from the old laws, highlighting instead that people should love God and their neighbour.

Jesus himself says nothing explicitly about homosexuality. There are though two statements by him which have been interpreted as having a bearing on the subject.

"[A] man shall leave his father and mother, and be made one with his wife; and the two shall become one flesh."

ANTI-GAY This indicates Jesus saw heterosexual relations as the proper way of behaving.

PRO-GAY Jesus is actually talking about the sanctity of heterosexual marriage

Later in the same conversation, after Jesus has spoken about divorce, the disciples say to him it is better not to marry at all. Jesus says: "That is something which not everyone can accept, but only those for whom God has appointed it. For while some are incapable of marriage because they were born so, or made so by men, there are others who have themselves renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Let those accept it who can."

PRO-GAY This shows that Jesus is more concerned with people looking after their own relationship with God, than with enforcement of rules. The reference to being "born so" indicates that heterosexual marriage is fine for those who are heterosexual, but it's OK to be different. Again and again Jesus reaches out to those on the margins of society, like prostitutes and tax collectors, to include them.

ANTI-GAY Jesus here is actually talking about people who were born incapable of having children, or people who were castrated - not about gays. He is actually saying that marriage and chastity are both within God's purpose. Jesus does appeal to the sinners, but once he has called them, he tells them to go and sin no more.

The letters of St Paul provide the other traditional support for the position that homosexuality is sinful. He writes: "God has given [people who worship false gods] up to shameful passions. Their women have exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and their men in turn, giving up natural relations with women burn with lust for one another; males behave indecently with males and paid in their own persons the fitting wage of such perversion."

Paul later writes: "Make no mistake: no fornicator or idolator, none who are guilty either of adultery or of homosexual perversion, no thieves or grabbers of drunkards of slanderers or swindlers, will possess the kingdom of God."

PRO-GAY A pro-gay position might be that the word Paul uses for homosexual here could alternatively be translated as "male prostitute". In any case, Paul's writings are clearly of his time, and there are plenty of other verses which people have no difficulty in ignoring - for instance: "a woman brings shame on her head if she prays or prophesies bare-headed; it is as bad as if her head were shaved." This should be viewed like that.

ANTI-GAY Anti-gay argument might say this line is crystal clear in establishing that Christianity and homosexuality are incompatible. Paul is actually quite clearly referring to homosexual behaviour, and includes lesbianism. You can't just pretend that St Paul, who did so much to influence our understanding of Jesus, didn't know what he was talking about. He's clear that homosexuality is an offence against God and against people's own bodies.

Part of the reason the views diverge so much is because Christians think of the Bible differently. Some see it as literally the word of God, divine inspiration which humans should not question. Others see it rather as a book which is a witness to God's message, but one which was written by humans and thus has flaws.

Trying to find common ground between the two positions is no simple matter - one of the reasons that Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, is having such a tricky job keeping everyone on board.

Quotations are taken from the New English Bible.

References are on this page

[Jumper]

Intercourse can also mean to "join in conversation".

[Havoc]

David wasn't a homo and morals are not bound to time. God stated that homosexuality is an abominiation - literally that it makes him want to puke. It is a sin so sick it warranted death under the law. Jesus' fulfillment of the law may mean that God rightly owns judgement of that sin; but, it makes it no less a sin.

[Jim Noble]

What the Bible says is that man is a created being, and that, in the realm of sex, that said being has two natures, male and female, which together are in the image of God.

It also says that the relationship between male humans and female humans proceeds according to a design, or plan.

It also says, by the way, that deviating from the plan is abominable-but in this context, it's not the characterization of the deviation that is important, but the fact that is not part of the Creator's design.

[Non-Sequitur]

God stated that homosexuality is an abominiation - literally that it makes him want to puke.

He said the same about eating shrimp.

[milan]

Others see it rather as a book which is a witness to God's message, but one which was written by humans and thus has flaws.

And how do we know that the portions of the Bible which discuss homesexuality are NOT flawed? Maybe the PC view is thawed...maybe? It is.

God said to be "fruitful and multiply" How do two men do that?

God said "a man will leave his mother and father" to be with his wife...not his gay partner.

This article is nuts. There is not two views. There is a correct view and a wrong view. The "gay" view is wrong. No grey area. Gays can justify their conduct as much as they want, and I hope it makes them feel good. They are wrong.

[milan]

He said the same about eating shrimp.

Oh, brother!

[Pete]

This author is not up to speed. David's love for Jonathan was the love between two soldiers who had fought many battles together. Stu Webber has addressed this verse in his books. For those of you not familiar with Stu Webber, he was a special ops guy in Vietnam. He talks about the bond that grows between men in combat. I am sure there are many on this forum who have seen combat who can attest to the that. The quoted verse, however, is often cited by those with the homosexual agenda in an effort to paint David as a homosexual. Such a characterization is completely out of context and incorrect.

[Pete]

I only had to quickly scan the article and even in that brief read I can see the author is hashing up old interpretations of scripture that have long ago been refuted as out of context or simply incorrect. If I have time, I will provide more information. (I am sure there are many others on FR who can do the same and will probably get to it before I get back.)

[Always Right]

Intercourse can also mean to "join in conversation".

But would make no sense in the context.

[FLAUSA]

Are you equating eating shrimp with being a homosexual? I know when I eat shrimp and drink beer I do some strange things.

[Non-Sequitur]

Are you equating eating shrimp with being a homosexual? I know when I eat shrimp and drink beer I do some strange things.

You're half safe. So far as I know Leviticus had nothing to say about beer.

[invoman]

He said the same about eating shrimp.
And the penalty, in the Bible, for eating shrimp is??

[LadyDoc]

This if ignoring that homosexuality and pedophilia were common in pagan societies, as were male and female prostitutes...and the ancient Hebrews were famous for their refusal of such activity..

Catholics would also point out that we rely on traditional interpretations, and that to the earliest times homosexual impurities and going to prostitutes and adultery and premarital sex was considered wrong...even in days before the rabbis and priests decided what should be in the bible...(which is why the Catholic bible has accepted books that the rabbis rejected, since the had been used im the early church).

As for homosexuality, the upright Romans frowned on it, and conisdered it wrong. And most non Christian societies also frown on it...homosexuals are not killed, but ridiculed and looked down upon in traditional Chinese, Hindu and African societies...and for all the rewriting of history about homosexual love in ancient Greece, the Greeks considered it different than marriage, and except for the elite, frowned on it...Aristophanes ridicules a crossdressing guy in one of his plays, for example, and in Lysistrada has women stop a war by refusing sex with men-- the humor behind the play would not be funny if all the guys were humping each other...

[djf]

Well, as we have heard.

God created Adam and Eve.
Not Adam and Steve.

[jocon307]

"This article is nuts."

I thought the article was pretty good, actually. It lays out the two sides of the argument and doesn't champion either. I am not familiar with the Bible "chapter & verse" and have oftened wondered where the homsexual activists found support.

Now I can clearly see from the quotations here that their platform rests on some pretty flimsy boards.

I also see I better stop drinking, if you know what I mean. So I will say, good post!

[MEG33]

Why don't we discuss fornicators,slanderers,thieves,adulterers,like we do homosexuals?

[Moby Grape]

This article doesn not mention what Paul had to say about it. Of course, Paul was handpicked by Christ himself to bring the Gospel to the gentiles....Paul said that we should not be decieved; that no murderer, no liar, no homesexual would enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

He also said that "men gave up the natural affection for women, and burned within themselves for each other, and recieved within them the just recompence of their actions."

[Jonah Hex]

Why don't we discuss fornicators,slanderers,thieves,adulterers,like we do homosexuals?

We talk about Congress all the time!

[ovrtaxt]

Anyonw who's been born again knows very well what He 'means' when they read the Bible. Our slimy attempts at justifying sin of any kind is common to us all, but it still doesn't change what He says.

Anyway, sex of any kind outside of marriage is prohibited. Doesn't matter if it's male/female or not. And you can only be married to someone of the opposite sex.