Cardinal Responds to Questions on Liturgy

Adoremus ^ | October 2003 | Adoremus

[JNB]

The Holy Sprit did indeed inspire Vatican II, though who knows what exactly inspired Abp. Bugnini, but that said, the holy spirit did protect Pope Pual VI enough to prevent the Novus Ordo from becoming openly herritical, and when it is celebrated properly as it is in the few examples I have given(and Anglican Use is also based on the Novus Ordo as well), it is a wonderful and rich liturgy that is faithful. But in so many cases, it becomes a completely horizontal event, the sacraficial nature of it becomes lost all too often, and while technically it may still be a sacrafice, it more resembles a weekly gathering that has a few "happy hymns", a gutless homily with very little hint of the sacrafice, because they all say it is a "communal meal".

For a good look at what the Novus Ordo can and should be , go to http://www.stagnes.net and http://www.assumptiongrotto.com

[tiki]

I don't disagree with you but when they separate themselves from the main body of Christ to be more "holy" they add to the problem and they are thinking only of their own salvation and grace. They disrespect the power of God to use them or the parish they are in to effect change. It is like a marriage. If things were bad in a marriage you would at least try to make it work not just give up and run to the arms of another spouse.

The Trads effectively say that our limb of the Body of Christ is not good enough for them. They want to be another part but we are a part of ONE and so become ONE with Christ. That is where our perfection and the perfection of the Church will come from.

I know I've talked about my friend who is a Trad. She pulled her kids out of Catechism and taught them at home. She could have volunteered to teach at her church!! but instead she kept her knowledge and piety for her children only and then complains that the Catholic children who go to NO don't know about the faith! She looks down her nose in her superiority at us poor idiots who don't understand what she THINKS she understands and it has lost her all but a few friends, (Idiots like me who care enough not to abandon her), her mother is at her wits end because she is so rigid, she can't even act like a human being. Her daughter's wedding in a NO cermony was made to be all about her and her disdain for the NO Church instead of the wonderful sacrament that it was. It won no converts to the Traditional side and much anger and hurt. She is not even going to attend her own Godson's wedding in December.

I hate to say it but she's whacked! She's selfish and she's lost trust in Jesus who SAID that the gates of hell would not prevail. They haven't and no matter what she says or thinks and no matter what any Trad says or thinks, the gates of hell have not and will not prevail or Jesus was a liar.

The one thing that I have read about so many saints is that they had JOY. Whether they were suffering, whether they were pious, whether they were in convents or monastaries or out in the world they had the joy and peace in the Lord. I don't see that in the Trads I know just fear of whether the language is right and the form and the motions but what about the heart? What about the joy? What about the trust in God? What about the disposition of our hearts? What is the greatest commandment?

[Salvation]

Thanks for posting this.

[JNB]

I will be the first to say that Traditionalists do not make a good name for themselves, but I do not blame your friend at all for pulling her children out of a CCD class. I know that many parish' try to softpeddal CCD as much as possible, and yoru friend would be too hard edged, to truthful for their tastes.

The traditionalists do indeed have a seige mentality, but look at why they have a seige mentality. They have had novelty after novelty, all in the name of worshipping like the "Early Church" shoved down their throat, they have had horrible liturgical music shoved down their throat, they have had EMEs and altar girls shoved down their throat, they have been treated like dirt by Bishop after Bishop, and priest after priest. The self appointed laity who are on parish councils I think are every bit as arrogant as many trads can be. As for joy, I am sorry, but false joy is also shoved down too many peoples throats.

I myself am hardly a rad trad, and currently I attend a Novus Ordo mass in English(though the parish has no altar girls, no female lectors, no EMEs and uses the communion rail and the nice Collegeville hymnal), but I myself would be very selective on telling Catholics and potential converts to the faith on where to attend mass. 2 years ago, I had no clue what the Eucharist was, and still didnt have a clear idea of the sacrafical nature of the mass untill I almost literally stumbled in a SSPX chapel out of mere curiosity. I finally realised the sacrafical nature of the mass.

Again, I do not approve of how many trads act, it has done great damage to the movment, and its painful to see them act in such a way, but they did not adopt a seige mentality for no reason, and unless the parish' that use the normative missal clean up their act dramatically, like the one I attend, then more Catholics will end up becoming traditionalists out of fustration. When the Novus Ordo is properly translated, when the OCP/GIA hymnals are thrown away, when the "Sprit of Vatican II" is finally relegated to the past, when altar girls are supressed, when all priests and deacons assigned to a parish get off their duff and give out communion at every day of obligation mass, then proponents of the Novus Ordo will have no leg to stand on.

Lastly Tiki, SSPXers are Catholics, they have a valid mass, and valid sacraments. The worst that can be said about schismatics is they are equivlent to Eastern Orthdox.

[tiki]

I replied to your post before I saw your post to me.

I think that our diocese has very wonderful NO masses. We are tucked away from the liberal cities and the changes have been slower. I know that I have read of horrible abuses in other dioceses but even then I would probably feel that I had a job to do to help bring about change.

As a convert, I take being a Catholic very seriously. Especially when I yelled at God one day when I was feeling guilty about not going to any church for 14 years. I yelled and I really mean yelled, "God, If you want me to go to church then MAKE me." I learned you shouldn't challenge God unless you are serious. He has ways of causing one little miracle after another and opening each door as you come to it.

Well, anyway, what I'm trying to say is that flawed or not, the Catholic Church is where I'm supposed to be. It may be because I am supposed to do something or it may be that I'm just supposed to be obedient to God. I don't hate Trads but I think that they are cowards because they are afraid that Jesus hasn't or won't keep His promise and that their salvation hinges on ceremony rather than on the Grace of God. I trust that if I am worshipping God with a true heart then He can overcome the abuses and make the Sacraments real because of His Grace.

[JNB]

If you ask why Catholics became traditional Catholics, very few would say they became traditional Catholics because of the various "Novus Ordo is invalid" arguements that you see presented all over the internet. No, the vast majority started out as Catholics that went to their local neighborhood parish. They faithfully went to their neighborhood parish for years, and put up with the OCP hymnal, put up with weak preaching, but started to get fed up with the fact too much of the sacred was lost. In many cases, these people, parents saw what CCD clases were doing to their childrens faith, how their children were taught all religions were equal(or somthing close to that) while their children were taught little about centreal church dogmas such as the Eucharist. These Catholics were often insulted and belittled by clergy and self appointed laity when they wanted more traditional church hymns, when they objected to what their children were being taught in CCD. These faithful Catholics, after often many years of putting up with this did what they had to do to preserve their faith and more importantly, the faith of their children. They seeked out the parish' that had the most traditional liturgy, and parish' that stressed authentic church teachings. In some cases, it was the local indult mass, in some cases, its a quasi traditional Novus Ordo, in the case of San Antonio and Fort Worth TX, its the Anglican use parish, but in the so many areas that these options were not avilable, they went to the SSPX.

[tiki]

I was just thinking of our last priest. He was a mess! He started using the inclusive language and he did so many things wrong. He was aslo gone a lot and didn't give us enough warning to get another priest for Sunday Masses so we'd just have Communion services which weren't announced beforehand so you thought you were going to Mass and ended up with a communion service. And once we didn't even have a Deacon but a NUN!

Needless to say, I was fit to be tied, I thought of my options and they were...stay where you are. That was the only option. For some reason, God sent us that priest, I didn't like it but there are a lot of things in this world that I don't like. Leukemia in children, hunger, pain, poverty of body and poverty of soul, that's why I want to spend my eternity in Heaven!

I got along with this priest, he wasn't unkind and he really thought he was being good and I tried to gently steer him to what I thought was the right path but he was immovable. So I did the only other thing I knew to do and that was to pray to God to send us another priest if He saw fit. And God answered and His answer was yes.

I wanted to get all hopeless a few times. I wanted to yell at the priest a few times. Many times I didn't feel I had been to Mass at all but I just submitted myself to the will of God. God has a purpose, a time and a season and He didn't choose me to run the Church, to excommunicate the apostates and unbelievers, to punish, or to judge, He chose me just to say yes and bend to His will when I can discern it.

[Desdemona]

"Seeked" out a parish?

Forget CCD for the moment - Voyages in English is what you need.

[JNB]

Desdemona, please, I am a terrible speller I will be the first to admit it, and sadly Free Republic does not have a spell check, was this slam really needed? I mean come on, slamming someones spelling only cheapens the debate.

I usually enjoy reading your posts Desdemona, and agree with most of what you have to say, but please, I beg you please do not take cheap shots if you disagree.

[sitetest]

Dear JNB,

I could be wrong, but I sorta took it as a gentle kidding.

I'm a pretty good speller, and don't make a large number of mistakes. Usually, I let folks' errors go, because it isn't right to take cheap shots, you're right. But sometimes, a mistake is just so delicious, that it's tough not to poke a little gentle fun.


sitetest

[JNB]

Well, I can not spell at all if it wasnt for spell check, it has been my weak suit, and yes, it has been a big embrassment for me. If someone takes a dig at my views in a reasonable manner, I am all for that, that is what debate is about, but on too many mesage boards, I have seen people use the spelling error arguement, and I am just sick of it. I do not feel that I should have to type all my message board posts in word then spell check them to contribute to a forum.

[Desdemona]

Ummm, that wasn't a spelling mistake, it was a grammar mistake. "Sought" was the word you wanted.

I can't spell either, but I aced every grammar test I ever took. Sorry, grammar mistakes, to me, are like fingernails down a blackboard. It wasn't meant to be a slam.

And Voyages in English is a classic Catholic textbook.

[tiki]

My choices in a small town are limited too but I still don't think I'd leave to join a sect that is in schism, even though the Masses have been judged to be valid but only if attended with the right spirit.

I work in my parish and I know that the priests don't have time to oversee all that the teachers teach. I am very traditional and I want the children to know the Truth of Catholicism, and so I teach. I have a book, approved by the various commitees and the diocese, I teach the Catholic faith and ignore the the fluff stuff.

I know I talk in circles but what upsets me about the Trads is their lack of faith in the Holy Spirit. For the most part they are intelligent and try to be very pious but they have lost hope in God and His ability to protect the Church.

[Desdemona]

See post 52.

Just a basic grammar problem. Sister Mary Gregory, one of my English teachers (along with Sister Mary D., Sister M.B. and Sister S.M.) would have said the same thing I did. Actually, so would have my mother. She's an English teacher too.

[JNB]

I did the best I could in grammar tests, just keep in mind, I have had the spelling/grammar mistake used against me so many times on various message boards that I just no longer think people picking apart things so minor such as spelling is productive. I understand you didnt mean it as a slam, but still, did you need to bring that up?

My saying is to people who do not like my spelling, deal with it. Typos and spelling errors happen, this is not a PHD thesis we are writing in FR.

[JNB]

I also was taught in California public schools if that means anything.

[Desdemona]

It wasn't a spelling mistake. Spelling is highly over-rated, IMO. But, good grammar gives one an educated sound.

Everyone has their pet peeves and grammar errors is one of mine. You should see me watch ESPN Sports Center. It's not pretty.

Just, please, understand. It's not that I disagree necessarily with what you say, but that leaped out at me.

[tiki]

You don't need to do that. I used to be a great speller and good at grammar too but what I'm not great at is taking the time to proofread and I'm not the best typist. A friend of mine and I used to write a lot of stuff and we used to read it out loud with the typos and roll on the floor because it sounded so funny. I know, it sounds insane but we lived in a small town and we had to have some way to entertain ourselves.

My husband is a horrible speller and my daughter-in-law has bad grammar, neither of them are lacking intellectually it is just that for some reason they don't make the right connection. I love for my husband to leave me notes or lists because they are funny and not in a bad way! God gave us all different talents and we should be thankful for those which we receive and not put anyone down if they didn't receive that same gift because they may have received an even better one.

[sinkspur]

I do not feel that I should have to type all my message board posts in word then spell check them to contribute to a forum.

"He who cannot be trusted in little things, cannot be trusted in big things."

Spelling mistakes and bad grammar are indications of sloppiness.

Do you take care when you are trying to communicate your economic knowledge (in which you have a greater depth than most on this board)?

Some people can't get past spelling and grammar. They simply tune out your ideas if you can't communicate them properly.

[sinkspur]

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh. But, you're a young man, and you have time to take your communication skills to the next level. And you should. People judge you by the words you use and how you use them.

Some of the rest of us are beyond hope.