Cardinal Responds to Questions on Liturgy

Wide-ranging questions on the Liturgy were answered by Cardinal Francis Arinze at a conference in July sponsored by the Apostolate for Family Consecration.

The question and answer session followed Cardinal Arinze's talk on the meaning of the Eucharist. The cardinal, who has headed the Vatican Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments since last October, has addressed these summer conferences, held at "Catholic Familyland" in Bloomingdale, Ohio for a number of years. A portion of this summer's session, transcribed by AB from a videotape kindly supplied by the Apostolate for Family Consecration, is presented here.

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Does everybody have to stand until the last person has received Holy Communion?

There is no rule from Rome that everybody must stand during Holy Communion. There is no such rule from Rome. So, after people have received Communion, they can stand, they can kneel, they can sit. But a bishop in his diocese or bishops in a country could say that they recommend standing or kneeling. They could. It is not a law from Rome. They could -- but not impose it. Perhaps they could propose. But those who want to sit or kneel or stand should be left reasonable freedom.

Is that the same thing with the consecration? Can they kneel during the consecration?

A bit different there. The rule from Rome would sanction where the bishops said, "in our country we want people to kneel throughout the consecration". From our office in Rome we will support that. So it is a bit different. But sometimes during the consecration -- suppose it is open-air or it rained and it is muddy -- you could not kneel there. But in the normal church it is possible to kneel.

And that's the normal thing: to kneel during the consecration -- and even, as in this country, to kneel from the beginning -- just before consecration -- right down to just before the Our Father. And that is okay.

Where a particular person cannot kneel -- you have arthritis or you are a mother holding a baby -- that is understood.

Why do so many churches not place the tabernacle in the center of the altar or in a prominent place?

The directives from Rome -- including the new Missal issued two years ago -- say that the tabernacle in which the Blessed Sacrament is reserved is to be located in a very prominent place either at the center or at such a side altar that it is really prominent and that around it there are kneelers and chairs so that people can pray -- kneel down or sit down. And it is to be so prominent that nobody should need to look for it when you enter the church.

Therefore, whenever you enter a church and you look for the tabernacle where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved and you do not easily see it, then those who arrange it are already wrong. Because it should be prominent -- it should stand out -- to show our faith.

However, it is not a law that it must be at the center. But it is a law that where it is should be prominent. And that it should be easy for people to see it and to go there and pray. But unfortunately in some churches, sometimes those who did it did not know. But they did not know that they did not know.

So you enter the church and you ask where is the tabernacle? "They have taken the Lord away and we do not know where they have put Him". That's what Mary Magdalene said on Easter day.

Has liturgical dance been approved for Masses by your office?

There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.

The question of dance is difficult and delicate. However, it is good to know that the tradition of the Latin Church has not known the dance. It is something that people are introducing in the last ten years -- or twenty years. It was not always so. Now it is spreading like wildfire, one can say, in all the continents - some more than others. In my own continent, Africa, it is spreading. In Asia, it is spreading.

Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God -- what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That's not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.

So all those that want to entertain us -- after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don't come to clap. We don't come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.

Don't misunderstand me, because when I said this at one place somebody said to me: "you are an African bishop. You Africans are always dancing. Why do you say we don't dance?"

A moment -- we Africans are not always dancing! [laughter]

Moreover, there is a difference between those who come in procession at Offertory; they bring their gifts, with joy. There is a movement of the body right and left. They bring their gifts to God. That is good, really. And some of the choir, they sing. They have a little bit of movement. Nobody is going to condemn that. And when you are going out again, a little movement, it's all right.

But when you introduce wholesale, say, a ballerina, then I want to ask you what is it all about. What exactly are you arranging? When the people finish dancing in the Mass and then when the dance group finishes and people clap -- don't you see what it means? It means we have enjoyed it. We come for enjoyment. Repeat. So, there is something wrong. Whenever the people clap -- there is something wrong -- immediately. When they clap -- a dance is done and they clap.

It is possible that there could be a dance that is so exquisite that it raises people's minds to God, and they are praying and adoring God and when the dance is finished they are still wrapped up in prayer. But is that the type of dance you have seen? You see. It is not easy.

Most dances that are staged during Mass should have been done in the parish hall. And some of them are not even suitable for the parish hall.

I saw in one place -- I will not tell you where -- where they staged a dance during Mass, and that dance was offensive. It broke the rules of moral theology and modesty. Those who arranged it -- they should have had their heads washed with a bucket of holy water! [laughter]

Why make the people of God suffer so much? Haven't we enough problems already? Only Sunday, one hour, they come to adore God. And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else to bring us? Shame on you! That's how I feel about it.

Somebody can say, "but the pope visited this county and the people danced". A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father -- he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. And somebody introduces something funny -- is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out! If people want to dance, they know where to go.

The American Church has problems. How do we support our bishops and what is the best way to communicate our concerns?

I have not come here with pocketed answers to the questions in this country. So, you have enough leaders -- and among bishops, religious, lay men, lay women, young people in your country -- and you have enough dynamism to examine the problems in the best tradition of the Church and also in solidarity with the universal Church. There is nothing seen [here] that was never seen before.

Persons planning a wedding: Can they just pick anyone to be a Eucharistic minister at their wedding Mass, even if they're not approved?

Well, the question of Eucharistic minister -- you mean the Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, that is, those who will help the priest and the deacon when the priest and the deacon are not [sufficient] to give Holy Communion to the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds who are receiving Communion. That's what we mean by Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. Which means that if the priests and deacons are many and sufficient for those receiving Holy Communion, nobody else should dare to come near the altar and touch the sacred vessel to distribute Communion, because they were not ordained for that.

It's very important to stress that, because some people do not understand the whole point of these Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. Some people think that it is a power struggle for lay people to prove that what the priest can do, so can they. Which means if there are not many people to receive Communion -- suppose there are three priests or two priests and one deacon and 100 people to receive Communion -- then there is no need for even one single Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion.

However, I noticed in this country many people insist on receiving under two forms -- that means, the form of Body of Christ and Blood of Christ. If the bishop has approved it, that's all right. But it means it demands a lot of care because it is so easy to spill the Precious Blood.

It is so easy, and, as you mentioned earlier, in these days of disease, some people are worried if there are up to 50 people drinking from the same cup. Some people are hesitant.

Why would people not accept intinction? You [the priest] take the Body of Christ and just dip in the Precious Blood and give it to the person on the tongue. But the ministers must be priests or deacons, if they want that.

So the full answer to the question is, if the communicants are not too many and the ordinary ministers -- that means priests and deacons -- are enough; the question of Extraordinary Ministers does not arise. Therefore, there is no question of choosing them.

Well, the other question was, there is a wedding being planned and they're wanting to choose who will be the Eucharistic ministers and they might not even be approved by the bishop.

Oh, Lord help us! Lord help us! If the bishop has not approved the person to distribute Holy Communion, then the person does not distribute!

The only case where it would be allowed, by the books from Rome, is if the number of communicants is very high and it would take too long for the priest to do it alone -- then the priest, the priest himself, can choose one of the people and say, "I authorize you, just for today, to help me to distribute Holy Communion". Lest it take too long; that is allowed. But only the priest, and only when the communicants are too many. So, the question of those marrying choosing does not arise.

One thing I've seen before [is] where they have the ciborium out, and people come up and take our Precious Lord out of there and dip our Lord into the Precious Blood and place it on their own tongue themselves. Forbidden. Not correct. Because the nature of the Holy Eucharist is such that the person who is not a priest celebrating the Mass must be given the Body of Christ. You say "amen". And you receive, on the tongue or in the hand. If you are not the priests celebrating Mass -- if you are the deacon assisting -- you must be given [Communion]. You may not take.

Even if you are bishop or cardinal, and you are not celebrating that Mass, you must be given. You must not take.

For example, if you watch us in Rome in St. Peter's basilica or square, when the pope is saying a major Mass, there may be 40 cardinals, 100 bishops. When we are not concelebrating -- we are wearing red vestments but we are not concelebrating -- we are just assisting at Mass as all of you who are baptized. When it is time for Communion, we receive, exactly as everybody else. A deacon comes to us and says "the Body of Christ". I say "amen". He gives to me, and the same for all.

None of us is allowed to take. We must be given. This is the Church law. It is not to lower anybody, it is just the nature of the sacrament. Even when Christ multiplied bread and fish, He told the apostles to distribute it. It was a sign.

So the Church that regulates Eucharistic practice says that the holy Body and Blood of Christ will be given us. We will not take. Only the celebrating priests or the concelebrating communicate themselves. Everybody else must be given it, even if that person is a bishop or a priest.

Will Catholic universities here in the United States ultimately be given the ultimatum that they must start sound Catholic teaching?

[laughing] There is no need for a new law because that law is already there. So there is no need for a new law that they should teach Catholic teaching. It's normal. So there is no need for a fresh law. It would be good, however, that parents, if you think that those -- some university is not teaching Catholic doctrine, the parents should not be silent. Because you send your children and you pay.

Well, what was your reaction at Georgetown?

(In May, the cardinal gave a commencement address at Georgetown University that was followed by protests of some faculty and students. Ed.)

I gave my talk -- only three pages of ordinary Catholic doctrine. [applause]

In the history of the Church, were there ever women priests? Women can't be made priests, at any time; even the pope can't do that, can he?

No, the pope issued a document about seven years ago* saying that the Church has no power to ordain women priests. There were never women priests in the Church. If Christ would have wanted women to be priests, His Blessed Mother surely should have been number one. * Ordinatio Sacerdotalis

What is the Vatican doing to reform seminaries with a better spiritual formation, and also to increase vocations to the priesthood?

Well, the offices of the Holy Father are doing what they can, but of course, the major action is in bishops' dioceses and the bishops' conferences and the seminaries around the world. Most of them are regional -- that means several dioceses together run a seminary. The offices of the Holy Father give instructions, indications, help. The bishops come to Rome together every five years and they visit the various offices and they also visit the pope and this type of thing is discussed. But we must not expect that from the Vatican that there will be an instant solution to problems all around the world, because the Church is universal but also local.

Could you address the Church's teaching on abstaining from meat on Fridays outside of Lent?

The law is that we don't -- well, Good Friday and Ash Wednesday are the major days for fasting in general for those who have reached the age 21 and are not yet 60. Abstinence, that means no meat on those days for those who are age 14 [or over]. General canon law says that Fridays are days of abstinence -- no meat -- but if you want to eat meat, you should substitute some other form of penance. That's the church law.

In the United States, we have adequate income, why would we have to use glass or porcelain for the precious Blood and the Body of our Lord on the altar and not gold?

Oh, for the vessels. Ah! Actually, the liturgical laws forbid [this]. This is actually for bishops and priests to work out, because you cannot work out all that. But the liturgical laws are laid down about what type of vessel will be allowed at Mass.

Glass is forbidden. Yes, Forbidden. And anything that can break. Not to talk of those using baskets! Terrible things happen in this world!

However, not all priests know that. There are places where they had glass and they didn't know.

Therefore, if there is glass being used in your parish when you go next week, don't begin firing in all directions and telling them "Cardinal Arinze said no glass so I'm going to fight you". Don't do that! [He laughs.]

Is it appropriate for a Catholic parish to institute a dress code for Mass that requires minimum standards of modesty?

That is to demand that people must dress well before they get into the church. Well, it is a question of prudence. Perhaps it can work. Although in the world of today there are some people that are so unreasonable that if you try to push this, sometimes the person operating it gets a nervous breakdown.

However, there are some cases where there is such an offense against modesty that absolutely such people should not be allowed into a church building. Some break all the rules of common sense. But it is not the sort of thing you like to impose from Rome. It is the sort of thing that you like to leave to the good sense of those who look after a particular Church.

The Holy Sprit did indeed inspire Vatican II, though who knows what exactly inspired Abp. Bugnini, but that said, the holy spirit did protect Pope Pual VI enough to prevent the Novus Ordo from becoming openly herritical, and when it is celebrated properly as it is in the few examples I have given(and Anglican Use is also based on the Novus Ordo as well), it is a wonderful and rich liturgy that is faithful. But in so many cases, it becomes a completely horizontal event, the sacraficial nature of it becomes lost all too often, and while technically it may still be a sacrafice, it more resembles a weekly gathering that has a few "happy hymns", a gutless homily with very little hint of the sacrafice, because they all say it is a "communal meal".

For a good look at what the Novus Ordo can and should be , go to http://www.stagnes.net and http://www.assumptiongrotto.com

I don't disagree with you but when they separate themselves from the main body of Christ to be more "holy" they add to the problem and they are thinking only of their own salvation and grace. They disrespect the power of God to use them or the parish they are in to effect change. It is like a marriage. If things were bad in a marriage you would at least try to make it work not just give up and run to the arms of another spouse.

The Trads effectively say that our limb of the Body of Christ is not good enough for them. They want to be another part but we are a part of ONE and so become ONE with Christ. That is where our perfection and the perfection of the Church will come from.

I know I've talked about my friend who is a Trad. She pulled her kids out of Catechism and taught them at home. She could have volunteered to teach at her church!! but instead she kept her knowledge and piety for her children only and then complains that the Catholic children who go to NO don't know about the faith! She looks down her nose in her superiority at us poor idiots who don't understand what she THINKS she understands and it has lost her all but a few friends, (Idiots like me who care enough not to abandon her), her mother is at her wits end because she is so rigid, she can't even act like a human being. Her daughter's wedding in a NO cermony was made to be all about her and her disdain for the NO Church instead of the wonderful sacrament that it was. It won no converts to the Traditional side and much anger and hurt. She is not even going to attend her own Godson's wedding in December.

I hate to say it but she's whacked! She's selfish and she's lost trust in Jesus who SAID that the gates of hell would not prevail. They haven't and no matter what she says or thinks and no matter what any Trad says or thinks, the gates of hell have not and will not prevail or Jesus was a liar.

The one thing that I have read about so many saints is that they had JOY. Whether they were suffering, whether they were pious, whether they were in convents or monastaries or out in the world they had the joy and peace in the Lord. I don't see that in the Trads I know just fear of whether the language is right and the form and the motions but what about the heart? What about the joy? What about the trust in God? What about the disposition of our hearts? What is the greatest commandment?

I will be the first to say that Traditionalists do not make a good name for themselves, but I do not blame your friend at all for pulling her children out of a CCD class. I know that many parish' try to softpeddal CCD as much as possible, and yoru friend would be too hard edged, to truthful for their tastes.

The traditionalists do indeed have a seige mentality, but look at why they have a seige mentality. They have had novelty after novelty, all in the name of worshipping like the "Early Church" shoved down their throat, they have had horrible liturgical music shoved down their throat, they have had EMEs and altar girls shoved down their throat, they have been treated like dirt by Bishop after Bishop, and priest after priest. The self appointed laity who are on parish councils I think are every bit as arrogant as many trads can be. As for joy, I am sorry, but false joy is also shoved down too many peoples throats.

I myself am hardly a rad trad, and currently I attend a Novus Ordo mass in English(though the parish has no altar girls, no female lectors, no EMEs and uses the communion rail and the nice Collegeville hymnal), but I myself would be very selective on telling Catholics and potential converts to the faith on where to attend mass. 2 years ago, I had no clue what the Eucharist was, and still didnt have a clear idea of the sacrafical nature of the mass untill I almost literally stumbled in a SSPX chapel out of mere curiosity. I finally realised the sacrafical nature of the mass.

Again, I do not approve of how many trads act, it has done great damage to the movment, and its painful to see them act in such a way, but they did not adopt a seige mentality for no reason, and unless the parish' that use the normative missal clean up their act dramatically, like the one I attend, then more Catholics will end up becoming traditionalists out of fustration. When the Novus Ordo is properly translated, when the OCP/GIA hymnals are thrown away, when the "Sprit of Vatican II" is finally relegated to the past, when altar girls are supressed, when all priests and deacons assigned to a parish get off their duff and give out communion at every day of obligation mass, then proponents of the Novus Ordo will have no leg to stand on.

Lastly Tiki, SSPXers are Catholics, they have a valid mass, and valid sacraments. The worst that can be said about schismatics is they are equivlent to Eastern Orthdox.

I replied to your post before I saw your post to me.

I think that our diocese has very wonderful NO masses. We are tucked away from the liberal cities and the changes have been slower. I know that I have read of horrible abuses in other dioceses but even then I would probably feel that I had a job to do to help bring about change.

As a convert, I take being a Catholic very seriously. Especially when I yelled at God one day when I was feeling guilty about not going to any church for 14 years. I yelled and I really mean yelled, "God, If you want me to go to church then MAKE me." I learned you shouldn't challenge God unless you are serious. He has ways of causing one little miracle after another and opening each door as you come to it.

Well, anyway, what I'm trying to say is that flawed or not, the Catholic Church is where I'm supposed to be. It may be because I am supposed to do something or it may be that I'm just supposed to be obedient to God. I don't hate Trads but I think that they are cowards because they are afraid that Jesus hasn't or won't keep His promise and that their salvation hinges on ceremony rather than on the Grace of God. I trust that if I am worshipping God with a true heart then He can overcome the abuses and make the Sacraments real because of His Grace.

If you ask why Catholics became traditional Catholics, very few would say they became traditional Catholics because of the various "Novus Ordo is invalid" arguements that you see presented all over the internet. No, the vast majority started out as Catholics that went to their local neighborhood parish. They faithfully went to their neighborhood parish for years, and put up with the OCP hymnal, put up with weak preaching, but started to get fed up with the fact too much of the sacred was lost. In many cases, these people, parents saw what CCD clases were doing to their childrens faith, how their children were taught all religions were equal(or somthing close to that) while their children were taught little about centreal church dogmas such as the Eucharist. These Catholics were often insulted and belittled by clergy and self appointed laity when they wanted more traditional church hymns, when they objected to what their children were being taught in CCD. These faithful Catholics, after often many years of putting up with this did what they had to do to preserve their faith and more importantly, the faith of their children. They seeked out the parish' that had the most traditional liturgy, and parish' that stressed authentic church teachings. In some cases, it was the local indult mass, in some cases, its a quasi traditional Novus Ordo, in the case of San Antonio and Fort Worth TX, its the Anglican use parish, but in the so many areas that these options were not avilable, they went to the SSPX.

I was just thinking of our last priest. He was a mess! He started using the inclusive language and he did so many things wrong. He was aslo gone a lot and didn't give us enough warning to get another priest for Sunday Masses so we'd just have Communion services which weren't announced beforehand so you thought you were going to Mass and ended up with a communion service. And once we didn't even have a Deacon but a NUN!

Needless to say, I was fit to be tied, I thought of my options and they were...stay where you are. That was the only option. For some reason, God sent us that priest, I didn't like it but there are a lot of things in this world that I don't like. Leukemia in children, hunger, pain, poverty of body and poverty of soul, that's why I want to spend my eternity in Heaven!

I got along with this priest, he wasn't unkind and he really thought he was being good and I tried to gently steer him to what I thought was the right path but he was immovable. So I did the only other thing I knew to do and that was to pray to God to send us another priest if He saw fit. And God answered and His answer was yes.

I wanted to get all hopeless a few times. I wanted to yell at the priest a few times. Many times I didn't feel I had been to Mass at all but I just submitted myself to the will of God. God has a purpose, a time and a season and He didn't choose me to run the Church, to excommunicate the apostates and unbelievers, to punish, or to judge, He chose me just to say yes and bend to His will when I can discern it.

My choices in a small town are limited too but I still don't think I'd leave to join a sect that is in schism, even though the Masses have been judged to be valid but only if attended with the right spirit.

I work in my parish and I know that the priests don't have time to oversee all that the teachers teach. I am very traditional and I want the children to know the Truth of Catholicism, and so I teach. I have a book, approved by the various commitees and the diocese, I teach the Catholic faith and ignore the the fluff stuff.

I know I talk in circles but what upsets me about the Trads is their lack of faith in the Holy Spirit. For the most part they are intelligent and try to be very pious but they have lost hope in God and His ability to protect the Church.

You don't need to do that. I used to be a great speller and good at grammar too but what I'm not great at is taking the time to proofread and I'm not the best typist. A friend of mine and I used to write a lot of stuff and we used to read it out loud with the typos and roll on the floor because it sounded so funny. I know, it sounds insane but we lived in a small town and we had to have some way to entertain ourselves.

My husband is a horrible speller and my daughter-in-law has bad grammar, neither of them are lacking intellectually it is just that for some reason they don't make the right connection. I love for my husband to leave me notes or lists because they are funny and not in a bad way! God gave us all different talents and we should be thankful for those which we receive and not put anyone down if they didn't receive that same gift because they may have received an even better one.

I do not feel that I should have to type all my message board posts in word then spell check them to contribute to a forum.

"He who cannot be trusted in little things, cannot be trusted in big things."

Spelling mistakes and bad grammar are indications of sloppiness.

Do you take care when you are trying to communicate your economic knowledge (in which you have a greater depth than most on this board)?

Some people can't get past spelling and grammar. They simply tune out your ideas if you can't communicate them properly.

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