"Reformed will you be. Yeessss...mmm hmm hmm..."
Posted on 07/17/2003 9:53:46 AM PDT by Frumanchu
“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.“ Romans 8:29,30
Broadly speaking there have been two general views as to the meaning and use of the word “foreknew” in Romans 8:29. One class of commentators (the Arminians) maintain that Paul is saying that God predestined to salvation those whom He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace (i.e., those whom He saw would of their own free will repent of their sins and believe the gospel). Godet, in commenting on Romans 8:29, asks the question: “In what respect did
God thus foreknow them?” and answers that they were “foreknown as sure to fulfill the conditions of salvation, viz. faith; so: foreknown as His by faith.” 1 The word “foreknew” is thus understood by Arminians to mean that God knew beforehand which sinners would believe, etc., and on the basis of this knowledge He predestined them unto salvation.
The other class of commentators (the Calvinists) reject the above view on two grounds. First, because the Arminians’ interpretation is not in keeping with the meaning of Paul’s language and second, because it is out of harmony with the system of doctrine taught in the rest of the Scriptures. Calvinists contend that the passage teaches that God set His heart upon (i.e., foreknew) certain individuals; these He predestined or marked out to be saved. Notice that the text does not say that God knew SOMETHING ABOUT particular individuals (that they would do this or that), but it states that God knew the individuals THEMSELVES – those whom He knew He predestined to be made like Christ. The word “foreknew” as used here is thus understood to be equivalent to “foreloved” – those who were the objects of God’s love, He marked out for salvation.
The questions raised by the two opposing interpretations are these: Did God look down through time and see that certain individuals would believe and thus predestine them unto salvation on the basis of this foreseen faith? Or did God set His heart on certain individuals and because of His love for them predestine that they should be called and given faith in Christ by the Holy Spirit and thus be saved? In other words, is the individual’s faith the cause or the result of God’s predestination?
A. The meaning of “foreknew” in Romans 8:29
God has always possessed perfect knowledge of all creatures and of all events. There has never been a time when anything pas, present, or future was not fully known to Him. But it is not His knowledge of future events (of what people would do, etc.) which is referred to in Romans 8:29,30, for Paul clearly states that those whom He foreknew He predestined, He called, He justified, etc. Since all men are not predestined, called, and justified, it follows that all men were not foreknown by God in the sense spoken of in verse 29.
It is for this reason that the Arminians are forced to add some qualifying notion. They read into the passage some idea not contained in the language itself such as those whom He foreknew would believe etc., He predestined, called and justified. But according to the Biblical usage of the words “know,” “knew,” and “foreknew” there is not the least need to make such an addition, and since it is unnecessary, it is improper. When the Bible speaks of God knowing particular individuals, it often means that He has special regard for them, that they are the objects of His affection and concern. For example in Amos 3:2, God, speaking to Israel says, “You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.” The Lord know about all the families of the earth, but He knew Israel in a special way. They were His chosen people whom He had set His heart upon. See Deuteronomy 7:7,8; 10:15. Because Israel was His
in a special sense He chastised them, cf. Hebrews 12:5,6. God, speaking to Jeremiah, said, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you,” (Jeremiah 1:5). The meaning here is not that God knew about Jeremiah but that He had a special regard for the prophet before He formed him in his mother’s womb. Jesus also used the word “knew” in the sense of personal, intimate awareness. “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’ “ (Matt. 7:22,23). Our Lord cannot be understood here as saying, I knew nothing about you, for it is quite evident that He knew all too much about them – their evil character and evil works; hence, His meaning must be, I never knew you intimately nor personally, I never regarded you as the objects of my favor or love. Paul uses the word in the same way in I Corinthians 8:3, “But if one loves God, one is known by him,” and also II Timothy 2:19, “the Lord knows those who are His.” The Lord knows about all men but He only knows those “who love Him, who are called according to His purpose” (Rom 8:28) – those who are His!
Murray’s argument in favor of this meaning of “foreknew” is very good. “It should be observed that the text says ‘whom He foreknew’; whom is the object of the verb and there is no qualifying addition. This, of itself, shows that, unless there is some other compelling reason, the expression ‘whom he foreknew’ contains within itself the differentiation which is presupposed. If the apostle had in mind some ‘qualifying adjunct’ it would have been simple to supply it. Since he adds none we are forced to inquire if the actual terms he uses can express the differentiation implied. The usage of Scripture provides an affirmative answer. Although the term ‘foreknew’ is used seldom in the New Testament, it is altogether indefensible to ignore the meaning so frequently given to the word ‘know’ in the usage of Scripture; ‘foreknow’ merely adds the thought of ‘beforehand’ to the word ‘know’. Many times in Scripture ‘know’ has a pregnant meaning which goes beyond that of mere cognition. It is used in a sense practically synonymous with ‘love’, to set regard upon, to know with peculiar interest, delight, affection, and action (cf. Gen 18:19; Exod. 2:25; Psalm 1:6; 144:3; Jer. 1:5; Amos 3:2;
Hosea 13:5; Matt 7:23; I Cor. 8:3; Gal. 4:9; II Tim. 2:19; I John 3:1). There is no reason why this import of the word ‘know’ should not be applied to ‘foreknow’ in this passage, as also in 11:2 where it also occurs in the same kind of construction and where the thought of election is patently present (cf. 11:5,6). When this import is appreciated, then there is no reason for adding any qualifying notion and ‘whom He foreknew’ is seen to contain within itself the differentiating element required. It means ‘whom he set regard upon’ or ‘whom he knew from eternity with distinguishing affection and delight’ and is virtually equivalent to ‘whom he foreloved’. This interpretation, furthermore, is in agreement with the efficient and determining action which is so conspicuous in every other link of the chain – it is God who predestinates, it is God who calls, it is God who justifies, and it is He who glorifies. Foresight of faith would be out of accord with the determinative action which is predicated of God in these other instances and would constitute a weakening of the total emphasis at the point where we should least expect it….It is not the foresight of difference but the foreknowledge that makes difference to exist, not a foresight that recognizes existence but the foreknowledge that determines existence. It is a sovereign distinguishing love.” 2
Hodge observes that “as to know is often to approve and love, it may express the idea of peculiar affection in this case; or it may mean to select or determine upon….The usage of the word is favourable to either modification of this general idea of preferring. ‘The people which he foreknew,’ i.e., loved or selected, Rom. 11:2; ‘Who verily was foreordained (Gr. foreknown), i.e., fixed upon, chosen before the foundation of the world.’ I Peter 1:20; II Tim. 2:19; John 10:14,15; see also Acts 2:23; I Peter
1:2. The idea, therefore, obviously is, that those whom God peculiarly loved, and by thus loving, distinguished or selected from the rest of mankind; or to express both ideas in one word, those whom he elected he predestined, etc.” 3
Although God knew about all men before the world began, He did not know all men in the sense that the Bible sometimes uses the word “know,” i.e., with intimate personal awareness and love. It is in this latter sense that God foreknew those whom He predestined, called, and justified, as outlinsed in Romans 8:29,30!
B. Romans 8:29 does not refer to the foresight of faith, good works, etc.
As was pointed out above, it is unnecessary and therefore indefensible to add any qualifying notion such as faith to the verb foreknew in Romans 8:29. The Arminians make this addition, not because the language requires it, but because their theological system requires it – they do it to escape the doctrines of unconditional predestination and election. They read the notion of foreseen faith into the verse and then appeal to it in an effort to prove that predestination was based on foreseen events. Thus particular individuals are said to be saved, not because God willed that they should be saved (for He willed the salvation of everyone) but because they themselves willed to be saved. Hence salvation is make to depend ultimately on the individual’s will, not on the sovereign will of Almighty God – faith is understood to be man’s gift to God, not God’s gift to man.
Haldane, comparing Scripture with Scripture, clearly shows that the foreknowledge mentioned in Romans 8:29 cannot have reference to the foreseen faith, good works, or the sinner’s response to God’s call. “Faith cannot be the cause of foreknowledge, because foreknowledge is before predestination, and faith is the effect of predestination. ‘As many as were ordained to eternal life believed,’ Acts 13:48. Neither can it be meant of the foreknowledge of good works, because these are the effects of predestination. ‘We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works; which God hath before ordained (or before prepared) that we should walk in them;’ Eph. 2:10. Neither can it be meant of foreknowledge of our concurrence with the external call, because our effectual calling depends not upon that concurrence, but upon God’s purpose and grace, given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Tim. 1:9. By this foreknowledge, then, is meant, as has been observed, the love of God towards those whom he predestinates to be saved through Jesus Christ. All the called of God are foreknown by Him, - that is, they are the objects of His eternal love, and their calling comes from this free love. ‘I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn thee,’ Jer. 31:3.” 4
Murray, in rejecting the view that “foreknew” in Romans 8:29 refers to the foresight of faith, is certainly correct in stating that “It needs to be emphasized that the rejection of this interpretation is not dictated by a predestinarian interest. Even if it were granted that ‘foreknew’ means foresight of faith, the biblical doctrine of sovereign election is not thereby eliminated or disproven. For it is certainly true that God foresees faith; he foresees all that comes to pass. The question would then simply be: whence proceeds this faith which God foresees? And the only biblical answer is that the faith which God foresees is the faith he himself creates (cf. John 3:3-8; 6:44;45,65; Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29; II Pet. 1:2). Hence his eternal foresight
of faith is preconditioned by his decree to generate this faith in those whom he foresees as believing, and we are thrown back upon the differentiation which proceeds from God’s own eternal and sovereign election to faith and its consequents. The interest, therefore, is simply one of interpretation as it should be applied to this passage. On exegetical grounds we shall have to reject the view that ‘foreknew’ refers to the foresight of faith.” 5
1 Frederic Godet, Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, p 325. Italics are his.
2 John Murray, The Epistle to the Romans, Vol. I, pp. 316-318. Italics are his.
3 Charles Hodge, Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, pp. 283, 284. Italics are his.
4 Robert Haldane, Exposition of the Epistle to the Romans, p. 397.
5 Murray, Romans, Vol. I, p. 316.
"Reformed will you be. Yeessss...mmm hmm hmm..."
I don't much like RC's new haircut... well, I didn't until now. Now it goes great with the ears.
Now you've done it, Fru. My former Ruling Elder occasionally attends RC's church (he splits his time between RC's church and one closer to his home)... Methinks Rev. Sproul may soon be receiving a copy of your latest masterwork....
best, OP
BTW, if he were to seriously want to pass R.C. a copy, let me know and I'll make a better quality one available ;)
Definitely the light saber. Definitely.
BTW, if he were to seriously want to pass R.C. a copy, let me know and I'll make a better quality one available ;)
I'll take that up with him.... ;-)
For the unregenerate man, the solution remains the same. Going to God and understanding how one might have a relationship with Him on His terms. That method is provided via the Gospel with faith in the Son and through the sacrifice of the Son, the penalty for sin has been paid en full. To lay claim to those blessings available to the whole world, one must first have faith in God through Christ.
Faith has its merit in the object, not the subject. This faith in Christ is what may be used because it is not a work, but faith alone for God to perform all the work of salvation.
Faith in God by the unregenerate man is made valid by God for salvation.
The following brash statement made from outside any fellowship with God should never blind the man who seeks to have a relationship with God, to have eternal life, to avoid everlasting torment and damnation, or to understand Christianity :
"Even the faith which an unregenerate man possess is not acceptable to God, defiled and tainted as it is by the man's unregenerate nature and condition."(A false statement)
The call is made by the Father. When Christ witnessed and communed with those yet reborn, he did so as to communicate the Gospel and encourage faith. His ministry wasn't wasteful.
I encourage you to read more Scripture with guidance from Him, than from 'Calvinists'. A false religion has been purported by their 'reasoning' which will scar the souls or unregenerate and regenerate alike.
Post #64, to wit, "You need to hear the Gospel, realize you're a sinner, repent, and ask Jesus to come into your heart and make you a new creation in Him."
Which Calvinist position is it going to be? Faith before regeneration per your order or asking Christ to enter a depraved temple per your recommendation?
I've found the more appropriate solution is to communicate the Gospel per the Great Commission, leave the situation between the unregenerate person and God and let the Holy Spirit perform the ministry. If it happens, all of these things settle themselves by His work.....simple.
Faith in God by the unregenerate man is made valid by God for salvation.
The following brash statement made from outside any fellowship with God should never blind the man who seeks to have a relationship with God, to have eternal life, to avoid everlasting torment and damnation, or to understand Christianity :
"Even the faith which an unregenerate man possess is not acceptable to God, defiled and tainted as it is by the man's unregenerate nature and condition."(A false statement)
Where does the faith originate from? If it originates within the unregenerate man, how can it not be tainted with the sin that taints him? Or are you saying that a polluted well can bring forth pure water? What is it about faith that would be any different from anything else which comes from the heart of a sinful, unregenerate man? It doesn't matter whether or not faith is a work. the origination of the faith has much to do with it's worth and fitness. The idea that a sinful, unregenerate man would spontaneously conceive to believe in God in anything approaching a salvific way is against all that scripture says untregenerate man is, and what he does. This is where your construct breaks down. You cannot produce any support for this idea... What you call a false statement is actually a true statement. It is your statement that is false.
Your constant inferrence that a Calvinist is -defacto- "out of fellowship" with God is getting quite tiresome. That is your personal opinion, and is not shared by any othetr person on this board that I am aware of. You have not, and cannot, produce one shred of evidence to support it, nor have you. You just continually throw it out there as a backdrop and justification for your wacky posts. It is the Arminian/Semi-Pelagian/Pelagian/Molinist view that is out of fellowship with God, and dissonant to His Word. It is that frame of reference that you speak from, and the discord you produce is quite annoying to those of us who do know the Word, and can rightly divide it.
As in any biblical discussion, when quoting a source outside yourself, context matters a great deal. You lifted one small paragraph (and not even the whole paragrpah) from a post made earlier on this thread, supposedly to detail an "inconsistency" which you intend to exploit to negate anything I say. The remark which you want to shine a spotlight on was made in the context of attempting to show an unregenerate "New Age" christian (note small 'c') that his goofy New Age ideas about the "christ within us" and that "everyone has a portion of the holy spirit within them because we are all spirit-children of God" was actually non-Christian, heretical, and that he was and is deceived by believing that, lulled into thinking he is OK while he is on his way to hell-fire.
In that light, my statement to him makes perfect sense, and is in accord with the way the Gospel was presented by Paul, Peter, John, and others. Telling him what he must do, is only detailing what God has said. I am not addressing his ability to do so or not. God is the one who will regenerate his heart so he can believe and reveive the true Gospel, if God has chosen him. That's not my call. My call is to present the Gospel.
Cvengr doesn't want the context to be known, because then he wouldn't have anything to bash me with. His whole agenda has been to marginalize me and any other Calvinist who would dare to withstand him, by subtle personal slurs and innuendo, rather than clear refutation (or the attempt at such) of what we have written. The real reason is that he can't refute it, and every time he tries, he digs himself deeper. He knows it, and we know it. Go back and read Post #64 in this thread, and read the posts leading up to it, especially those from the person I was responding to. Get the context of the discussion. I believe you will see that Cvengr has mis-represented me in this, and is actually lying about me, publicly, in an attempt to silence my refutation of his discordant posts.
The first 3 chapters of Romans clearly and utterly refute this idea. The basis of this idea is a belief that man is not as depraved as he really is, and that with proper stimulus, he will, of his own accord, seek God. This borders on Pelagianism.
And of course answers suddenly run out when one asks how God can not know what 'stimulus' is required to bring each individual to faith (or if He does, why He doesn't provide it in every case).
And of course you have never, ever, at any time used that phrase, or spoken those words to someone...
I think I have made my position abundantly clear. If you want to try to negate every other thing I've said with this one phrase, then you show yourself to be nothing but a nit-picking, petty, carnal Christian. Last time I checked, perfection wasn't required to post here, and the mature Christian would not nit-pick at this, but understand what was meant by it.
Ah, but don't you know that God has already done so with every man, but they choose in contravention of God's stimulus. "Bruce Almighty", indeed....( /sarcasm )
Way back then
Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:4 According as, he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Isa 44:7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Tts 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Either God did indeed work within time for creation or the Bible is false
But what needs to be realized is that if God inhabits eternity, then any decision that God makes NOW, he literally and actually made even before the foundation of the earth, because he is there NOW.
Sounds a bit like " speculation "to me. There are people ,
History is written or prophecy is a lie.
This is meaningless speculation and nothing more than an excuse to deny God His sovereignty.
We can not rewrite the word of God to mean what we want to believe or to dodge the truth God ordained Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world or not
If he did indeed ordain Christ before the foundation of the earth for the sin of men not yet created..He also had to create the means of His lineage, birth , and the cross. He had to know those for whom the savior would dire . He had the power and ability at that moment to do all things including planning and executing His plan .
Show me the scripture that supports your speculation .
Otherwise give up Steve and admit what you already know in your heart.
In that bedroom that many years ago the irresistible Grace of God drew you with cords of love and kindness...and all you wanted was Him . It was not forced it was welcome.
Psa 65:4 Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.
How foolish a statement and not worthy of this discussion.
God has made all decision on all things including your salvation
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Either God is God or He is a fickle puppet of man .
The unregenerate heart will never repent and believe. You are simply showing that you do not understand Calvinism
Could you show me the scripture that tells men to invite Jesus into their heart?
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