TLDR but, going on the TITLE of this thread; I'd reply by stating I see no 'argument'; merely an assertion.
Much like this one...
And then went on to add stuff that it appears that GOD did NOT say!
Posted on 12/10/2023 12:53:16 PM PST by daniel1212
Partly, by responding that scientific discovery and knowledge does not warrant the premise that the universe and everything therein can (at least someday) all be attributed to purely natural processes.
Meaning that the atheist/antitheist position claim that there is no Creator/God, is one lacking in evidential warrant and requires great faith. For it can only presume that an exceedingly vast, systematically ordered, intricate universe,* exquisitely finely tuned for earthly life with its extensive diversity and astounding complexity, came to be by known (or potentially known), purely natural demonstrable powers, as if it was Divine, without any supreme supernatural intelligence behind it.
And while man- using His God-given intelligence - has discovered causes and means of many things (like lighting) that were once attributed by some to purely supernatural causes, these are discoveries of how God created natural things to work, using laws He ordained, yet which are beside actions for organization of matter, and the programming of it which require supernatural powers and intelligence.
Moreover, rather than a trajectory of scientific discovery leading to a purely natural explanation of the universe, instead, the more that is discovered then the more perplexing competing hypotheses become
and the more absurd the atheistic denial of a creator becomes.For the Christian the evidence comports to the omniscient omnipotent God of the Bible as being the Ultimate First Cause, organizer and programmer.
Moreover, addressing the moral argument of antithiests, God, due to His very nature of knowing what every effect will be of every one of man’s choices - not only for this life but for eternity - has in that light a reason for His choices, including enabling man to make choices between alternatives - right or wrong - (unlike perfect robots) and thus effect consequences, for good as well as for bad, which to varying degrees affect others.
And unlike man, as omnipotent, God alone can make all things to ultimately work out for Good, with justice as well as mercy and grace;
And which Being cannot be judged regarding His choices by finite and exceedingly ignorant man as specks in this darkened corner of the universe, existing on earth in but a moment of time. Despite the ignorant railings of antithiests who essential must presume omniscience in charging an all-knowing God of immorality, while themselves have no sure supreme standard for morality, much less knowing what every effect will be of every one of man’s choices and the ability to make it all work out for what is objectively Good in the light of all that can be know.
Many of which atheists even deny a creator as a hypothesis and regardless of whatever evidence could be offered, as well as for the historicity of the Biblical Christ.
*
2. https://www.discovery.org/m/2020/06/Fine-Tuning-Parameters-Jay-Richards.pdf
6. 'God: new evidence' - the fine tuning of the universe - part 1
7. When science and philosophy collide in a 'fine-tuned' universe
10. We Live in a Very Fortunate Universe
11. List of Fine-Tuning Parameters
12. List of Factors of Fine-Tuning of Intelligent Life in the Universe
13. Can DNA Prove the Existence of an Intelligent Designer?
14. [God DNA] Proves Presence of God” says Scientists
15. 82 Mind-Blowing Facts about DNA | FactRetriever.com
16. 'God: new evidence' - the fine tuning of the universe - part 1
17. Evidence for the Fine Tuning of the Universe
18. It Takes 26 Fundamental Constants To Give Us Our Universe, But They Still Don't Give Everything
19. The Universe as We Understand It May Be Impossible
Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible?
20. Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
21. Is Jesus Alive?
24. Dawkins [essentially] Admits Nothing Can Persuade Him God ExistsDoes Dawkins exist?Do you believe Richard Dawkins exists? by Ellen Barrington Photo by Matti Á, flickr.com Do you believe in Richard Dawkins? If your answer was yes, why? Most of us have assumed Dawkins’ existence based on very little evidence. I for one have never met him. And though I’ve seen a couple of pieces of video footage, a few pictures and his name as author on a number of books, when you think about it, it’s not that substantial. I’ve seen video clips and pictures of ‘Santa Claus’, too. And authors use pseudonyms all the time, so there’s no telling who really wrote The God Delusion or The Greatest Show on Earth . By now you’re probably thinking, ‘Of course he exists; I’ve never seen direct evidence but I have good reason to believe he does.’ And even though your belief is based on faith, it’s a reasonable faith to hold. Ultimately, nothing in this world can be scientifically proven with 100% certainty. As humans with fallible reasoning and limited resources, we often have to come to similarly faith-based conclusions, based on the weight of evidence. We use such reasoning, involving logical deductions and inferences, frequently in everyday life. It’s why I’ve come to believe that I am surrounded in air, even though I can’t see it. And it’s why I believe that there is a country called Uzbekistan, thousands of kilometres away from my home, even though I’ve never been there. In fact, I would argue that I have seen far more evidence for the existence of God than for the existence of Dawkins. In the same way, I have also been convinced that there is a God who created the world and everything in it, specifically the God of the Bible. In fact, I would argue that I have seen far more evidence for the existence of God than for the existence of Dawkins. Skeptical? Let’s look at some of the evidence for a Creator God. God cannot be directly measured or detected by scientific means, and the larger scientific community claims that this is a good reason to deny His existence. Dr Scott Todd, an immunologist at Kansas State University, once stated that “even if all the data point to an intelligent designer, such an hypothesis is excluded from science because it is not naturalistic”. 1 In other words, supernatural creation, and miracles, are ruled out philosophically , whether true or not. The existence of everything around us Most evolutionists believe that the matter and energy in the entire universe, and the laws of physics themselves, ultimately appeared from nothing, out of nowhere, for no reason. Then the astronomical universe—the orderly system of stars, galaxies and planets—came into existence through entirely natural processes, all by itself. If we were to assume the truth of this astonishing claim, the next question is how life arose on earth. Evolutionists claim it occurred by abiogenesis, i.e. life arising from non-living matter, by itself. Yet current scientific evidence only supports biogenesis, i.e. that life arises from living matter. Biogenesis is one of https://creation.com/does-dawkins-exist
A list of 60 aspects are cited as regards the above is https://wng.org/roundups/a-fine-tuned-universe-1617224984
Quotes:
"according to many physicists, the fact that the universe is able to support life depends delicately on various of its fundamental characteristics, notably on the form of the laws of nature, on the values of some constants of nature, and on aspects of the universe’s conditions in its very early stages." https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fine-tuning/ A listing of such follows.
“I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.” - Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy) Willford, J.N. March 12, 1991. Sizing up the Cosmos: An Astronomers Quest. New York Times, p. B9.
“Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word ‘miraculous’ without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word.” - George Ellis (British astrophysicist) Ellis, G.F.R. 1993. The Anthropic Principle: Laws and Environments. The Anthropic Principle, F. Bertola and U.Curi, ed. New York, Cambridge University Press, p. 30
“We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in.” - John O’Keefe (astronomer at NASA) Heeren, F. 1995. Show Me God. Wheeling, IL, Searchlight Publications, p. 200.
“As we look out into the universe and identify the many accidents of physics and astronomy that have worked together to our benefit, it almost seems as if the universe must in some sense have known that we were coming.” - Professor Freeman J. of the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton
“The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.” - Ilya Prigogine (Chemist-Physicist) Recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry in, "Physics Today" 25, pp. 23-28
“The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge, and would be total chaos if any of the natural ‘constants’ were off even slightly. - - Dr. Paul Davies, esteemed author and Professor of Theoretical Physics at Adelaide University.
“...how surprising it is that the laws of nature and the initial conditions of the universe should allow for the existence of beings who could observe it. Life as we know it would be impossible if any one of several physical quantities had slightly different values.” - Professor Steven Weinberg (Nobel Laureate in High Energy Physics [a field of science that deals with the very early universe], writing in the journal “Scientific American”.)
16O has exactly the right nuclear energy level either to prevent all the carbon from turning into oxygen or to facilitate sufficient production of 16O for life. Fred Hoyle, who discovered these coincidences in 1953, concluded that “a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology.” - Hoyle, Fred. “The Universe: Past and Present Reflections,” in Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20. (1982), p.16 (for more of these coincidences click here)
“If you equate the probability of the birth of a bacteria cell to chance assembly of its atoms, eternity will not suffice to produce one… Faced with the enormous sum of lucky draws behind the success of the evolutionary game, one may legitimately wonder to what extent this success is actually written into the fabric of the universe.” - Christian de Duve. “A Guided Tour of the Living Cell” (Nobel laureate and organic chemist)
“...The capacity of DNA to store information vastly exceeds that of any other known system: it is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousand millionths of a gram. The information necessary to specify the design of all the species of organisms which have ever existed on the planet…could be held in a teaspoon and there would still be room left for all the information in every book ever written…” - Dr. Michael Denton (Australian microbiologist)
As regards “order,” from another non-Christian:
“The order of the universe is not an assumption; it’s an observed fact. We detect the light from distant quasars only because the laws of electromagnetism are the same 10 billion light years away as here. The spectra of those quasars are recognizable only because the same chemical elements are present there as here, and because the same laws of quantum mechanics apply. The motion of galaxies around one another follows familiar Newtonian gravity. Gravitational lenses and binary pulsar spin-downs reveal general relativity in the depths of space. We could have lived in a universe with different laws in every province, but we do not. This fact cannot but elicit feelings of reverence and awe.” ― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
*As Albert Einstein observed, " We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations."
“I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.” - Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy) Willford, J.N. March 12, 1991. Sizing up the Cosmos: An Astronomers Quest. New York Times, p. B9.
“Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word ‘miraculous’ without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word.” - George Ellis (British astrophysicist) Ellis, G.F.R. 1993. The Anthropic Principle: Laws and Environments. The Anthropic Principle, F. Bertola and U.Curi, ed. New York, Cambridge University Press, p. 30
“We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in.” - John O’Keefe (astronomer at NASA) Heeren, F. 1995. Show Me God. Wheeling, IL, Searchlight Publications, p. 200.
“As we look out into the universe and identify the many accidents of physics and astronomy that have worked together to our benefit, it almost seems as if the universe must in some sense have known that we were coming.” - Professor Freeman J. of the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton
“The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.” - Ilya Prigogine (Chemist-Physicist) Recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry in, "Physics Today" 25, pp. 23-28
“The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge, and would be total chaos if any of the natural ‘constants’ were off even slightly. - - Dr. Paul Davies, esteemed author and Professor of Theoretical Physics at Adelaide University.
“...how surprising it is that the laws of nature and the initial conditions of the universe should allow for the existence of beings who could observe it. Life as we know it would be impossible if any one of several physical quantities had slightly different values.” - Professor Steven Weinberg (Nobel Laureate in High Energy Physics [a field of science that deals with the very early universe], writing in the journal “Scientific American”.)
16O has exactly the right nuclear energy level either to prevent all the carbon from turning into oxygen or to facilitate sufficient production of 16O for life. Fred Hoyle, who discovered these coincidences in 1953, concluded that “a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology.” - Hoyle, Fred. “The Universe: Past and Present Reflections,” in Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20. (1982), p.16 (for more of these coincidences click here)
“If you equate the probability of the birth of a bacteria cell to chance assembly of its atoms, eternity will not suffice to produce one… Faced with the enormous sum of lucky draws behind the success of the evolutionary game, one may legitimately wonder to what extent this success is actually written into the fabric of the universe.” - Christian de Duve. “A Guided Tour of the Living Cell” (Nobel laureate and organic chemist)
“...The capacity of DNA to store information vastly exceeds that of any other known system: it is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousand millionths of a gram. The information necessary to specify the design of all the species of organisms which have ever existed on the planet…could be held in a teaspoon and there would still be room left for all the information in every book ever written…” - Dr. Michael Denton (Australian microbiologist)
For non-seeking atheists, like their rebel master, their denial of God and rejection of a supreme judge even as a hypothesis, their adament position due to their unconscious desire to be as God, as the supreme judge (atheism being a progression of idolatry) rather than being subject to Him.
Thus, they effectively presume omniscience in sitting in moral judgment upon an omniscient and omnipotent creator (at least of the Bible). Who cannot be judged since the choices of an omniscient and omnipotent creator are made in the light of His unique knowledge of what all the effects will be of every choice, not only in this brief time, but for eternity.
And who can - as He promises to do - make all to work out for what is Good, with justice towards the idolaters, and mercy and grace toward those who want what God represents, and thus seek and find The Light, The Way The Truth and The Life, by the grace of God. (Romans 2:7
Intelligent creation requires an intelligent Creator.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Proves nothing.
I know in my heart of hearts there is a God. The Bible gives us an excellent roadmap to understanding but is not proof.
I come to my belief through the Word and simple logic. As someone else here said, look outside! Look at the universe, DNA, and so many other things we have discovered through science, but we cannot explain how any of them came about fundamentally. None of them.
Anyway, I'm anxious about how you provide "proof" that God does exist.
Meaning that there must be an uncaused cause, which is either the universe itself or the least a supernatural intelligence. While aliens as the cause of the universe are allowed as hypothesis, God typically is not.
If there is something after I’ll know lol
Otherwise, nothing...
Quite a piece by quite the (lost) genius. Not my league!
Yes, but time is to the atheist what God is to the theist.
And if one goes in for ETs and the like, what argument can be made against taking the results of hypnotic regression and mediumship seriously?
Or this To Hell And Back - Dr Maurice S. Rawlings 50:29 Ignore Howard Storm. Reagan and the atheist are the best ones.
Only you can think for you.
Can you explain??
Thanks.
If everything had a beginning...
Nothing would start.
Fascinating thought 🤔
.
This whole posting is getting
To me——I don’t drink.
Thanks Mom...
Those posts are very bizarre
Very much spiritualism.
WOW
👌
Proves this...
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20.
TLDR but, going on the TITLE of this thread; I'd reply by stating I see no 'argument'; merely an assertion.
Much like this one...
And then went on to add stuff that it appears that GOD did NOT say!
Or just had cataract surgery!
For those that don’t believe(in God) I think at some point they WILL probably believe, but at some point it may be too late.
*
We all choose our own path.
Anyone that tells you they “Know” is full of Sh*t.
—
After you tell us you know.
Lol.
Many Lives, Many Masters: The True Story of a Prominent Psychiatrist, His Young Patient, and the Past Life Therapy That Changed Both Their Lives, by Brian L. Weiss, and Journey of Souls: Case Studies of Life Between Lives and Destiny of Souls, by Michael Newton are classics in the field of hypnotic regression.
There are two institutes that are also of interest: the Newton Institute and the Monroe Institute. The latter specializes in out of body experiences and using sound to trigger them and other forms of expanded consciousness.
There is reason to believe that toxins, drugs, sex, and drums were routinely used by religions and cults for that purpose in the ancient world. Christianity arose in such a context, eventually displacing a plethora of drug-infused Hellenic mystery cults with a philosophically and theologically based system of beliefs grounded in Judaism and the life and death of Christ.
In that light, the revolt of the Maccabees against the Hellenization of Jerusalem and the Jews under the Seleucids was not just a revolt of traditionalist Jews against Hellenizing reformers. It may also have been in part a reassertion of deeply grounded Jewish theology and religious practice against Hellenistic mystery cults and their prolific use of drugs, alcohol, hallucinogens, sex, and drums in an effort to expand consciousness in an individualistic way.
Dare I add that this sort of conflict plays out today as well. Traditional Christians tend to be deeply (and correctly) skeptical of New Age stuff, but, against my own inclinations, I have gradually come to see some of it as having value if treated with caution and discernment.
If you are interested in this sort of thing in a serious way, treat the fruitier woo-woo stuff with skepticism and look for persistent common aspects, especially if they are reproducible.
Typical of that posting history.
Jesus said to you in John 14, “ The things that I do and even more, you too shall do in my name.”
Why aren’t people doing these things and more?
Because they are intellectualizing Jesus and His teachings rather than experiencing them.
Jesus is my Savior, not because He died for me, but because He was born in the flesh, and lowered Himself to teach us how to follow Him. (This is why 1 John 4:2 is a very accurate scripture)
I would much sooner have a lifeguard that teaches me to swim rather than waiting until I am drowning to save me. Jesus was/is a rabbi, a teacher.
Some day soon I will begin sharing publically and demonstrating what I speak of. The Bible is very accurate and first people must be led astray and experience despair, prior to being empty enough to have room for Jesus in them.
I seek no followers. I share to help people to go witin self and search for God. Only there will they find Him.
If you look in the wilderness or the inner chamber, you will not find Him. Like the lightning in the east is seen in the west, so will be the Messiah when He arrives. How can the Messiah be so big that everyone on earth can see Him? How can He exist in all of us at the same time?
It’s because He is greater than the earth that exists within Him. We already exist within Him but are blind and cannot see Him.
Only by following His teachings can your soul grow to a level where you too shall perceive and experience Him.
Sin blocks soul growth by blocking Love. Without Love, no one can see and experience God.
🙏🙏🙏
2nd Law of Thermodynamics proves existance of God
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