What Caused The Jewish Exile? ...Noahide error

There is the House of Judah and the House of Israel-——IF you do not know the difference between the two and which tribes belong to each—you have NO CLUE what Bible prophecy speaks of.
If you never heard the terms before—you are biblically illiterate———

Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

but it's equally true that the Sanhedrin condemned Him to death

Why, because you said so? LOL. You need to spend sometime in. Greek NT. The word in your English version “Sanhedrin” is not found in the Greek. In fact your version is making a nonsensical commentary. The word is “ συμβούλιον;” and it is a VERB, not a noun. It literally says, “they took counsel” - so, yes, a group of Jewish leaders conspired against Jesus, but no, you are wrong, it was not the Sanhedrin.

For it to have been the Sanhedrin, would have require all 70. It could not rule from a house, and it could not meet at night. So what part of the Gospel account must bow to your theological perspective? Park your hatred, and read - you may be surprised what you start to see. But ditch the version of the NT you are reading - it is trying to twist words to match a specious theology,

Since arguing with the OP is clearly useless, I wish to point out some unfortunate truths for chrstianity, especially an allegedly original and long lost "faith only" Protestant type chrstianity.

For fifteen hundred years, all chrstianty did was to replace one "works righteousness" system with another--the difference bing that the earlier "works righteousness" system was inarguably and undeniably from the Mouth of G-d. This is something no version of chrstianity can claim.

For fifteen hundred years chrstianity never taught "total depravity" or penal substitution (even Luther didn't believe the latter). The Catholic concept of original sin is a wimp compared to Protestantism's total depravity.

For fifteen hundred years chrstianity did not teach penal substitution; even the Catholic version is very different and the other ancient chrstian churches reject total depravity, original sin, and penal substitution as heresies. The sole purpose of the "passion" was apparently to render the Chosen Nation an "accursed" one instead (G-d forbid!) and give some people an excuse to replace them as the "chosen" and to start a new religion. If it's new it ain't true.

The "new testament church" didn't have a written "new testament" at all during the first century. They operated without one. When your hero Paul was teaching that stuff you now read in his epistles, they were each and every one extra-Biblical. There is essentially no difference between the "new testament" and the "book of mormon." The idea that all ancient chrstianity can be found in those 27 books is an artificial doctrine invented later that treats this alleged "one true religion" as some long lost dinosaur species that has to be reconstructed from a small amount of evidence. Protestantism has many good critiques of the ancient churches but "sola scriptura" isn't one of them.

Low church Protestants who reject paedobaptism (a perfectly reasonable position) nevertheless insist that chrstianity is made up entirely of adult converts (because the "original new testament church" was made up of adult converts). But there is a difference. In the first century chrstianity was brand new and converts had to accept all its teachings no matter how much they contradicted previously held beliefs. Paedobaptism critics, however, create a situation where people are raised from the cradle believing in all the doctrines of chrstianity but who are considered "non-chrstians" until they have a spiritual-emotional experience. None of these people even seems to have a clue that "converting" to the beliefs one has held for a lifetime and intellectual adult conversion to something brand new and unheard of are two entirely different things. This leads to people who apparently think everyone in the world is somehow born believing in chrstianity and needing only enough NT verses quoted to them before they "get happy" and "become chrstians." Every time I have asked on this forum for proof that the "new testament" is truly divinely inspired my opponent has completely ignored my request and merely quoted NT verses. Obviously these people believe that I and everyone else in the world already "know" that chrstianity is true and only need to hear enough verses to "get happy."

Though it is certainly more internally consistent than its ancient opponents, Protestantism is an a-historical fraud. All the "believing" and all the "feeling" in the world cannot change this. The alleged fulfillment of low church Protestant prophecy cannot change this. And to merely "know that you know that you know that you know" is nothing but subjective moonshine.

So, between these two "works righteousness" systems, which do you prefer? The one unquestioningly from Heaven, or mere imitations whose rejection of depravity and penal substitution cuts out all logical grounds from their own claims?

Quote-’Every time I have asked on this forum for proof that the “new testament” is truly divinely inspired my opponent has completely ignored my request and merely quoted NT verses. ‘

The four gospels in the New Testament have divinely inspired discrepancies and contradictions that, for 2,000 years, couldn’t really look like divinely inspired.

That’s the beauty of the ‘about 2,000’ swine reference in Mark, the 2nd book.

It so describes the last 2,000 years.
And it’s a number that is found in an interesting place in the Old Covenant.
Joshua.
The distance natural Israel was to be kept from the ark while passing into the Promised Land.

People born 500 years ago couldn’t understand that clue in the Old and New Testaments.
People born today can.
The world may not understand the last 2,000 years were predicted in both the Old and New Testaments.
The fact the number of 2,000 was only recorded in Mark is a divinely inspired clue/riddle/mystery.
And the fact that John doesn’t have the account is another divinely inspired clue/riddle/mystery.

Not an insignificant mystery either. mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven.

It helps to have the Key to unlock the mysteries.
The Key is the Messiah of Israel, Torah Made Flesh, the Passover Lamb.
And what He has divinely inspired to be written in the New Testament about what was, what is, and what is to come.

I had an office on 47th street a few doors from Kaplan’s deli in the 80s

I also worked out of London and Ramat Gan and Geneva and some in Antwerp before the Hindi took over

I was a procurer....from Muzo to Roraima to Minas Gerais to Sierra Leone and the Congo and Zambia and the Karen held region of Burma

I had Israeli and NewYork and London and Swiss ..all Jewish without exception .. partners in diamonds and emeralds ....and other precious stones

Navarro, Goldhaber, Schlapp and Applebaum.....these are big names to folks who knew the business then ...worldwide

many Orthodox and even Haredi Jews of various sects and some bohemian secular like kibbutz raised Navarro whom I consider one of my best friends of my life and who later went all Rebbe and married Rebbes granddaughter from Monsey and had a zillion kids with her....arranged..he was 42...her 18..(maybe)

I never met one who believed Jesus was the messiah

If so I find that good news....wonderful

But I never saw it....I did the danger work with my mining partners and traveled to conflict zones....they helped sell and cut and prepare and make deals .....

Never ever met one Haredi who believed Jesus was the messiah and that Christianity was righteous and valid

Quite the contrary....I was not allowed to use plateware or glasses etc in an Haredi home in Monsey because as a goyim ....a serious goyim lol.....I was unclean....they weren’t much different to secular Jews either

Hassidism is to me a near cult with similarities to FLDS arranged underaged marriages....grifting...public dole exploitation and so forth....but many vote R just like extremist Mormons so freepers think they great...

I don’t see them accepting my Messiah Yeshua or Jesus whatever name you like...The Christ

So educate me ...and I mean that respectfully....I’d like to believe it’s true

I have been to seders at orthodox homes....just normal kippah wearing orthodox ...maybe a tallit under the jacket on Friday’s or a tefillah for morning prayer on occasion ..nothing too extreme from these moderate orthodox

They welcomed me ..Home wise .....more orthodox or Haredi would never.....ever

I concede that you may not understand that the position you are taking is found upon an anti-Semitic trope. For more than a millennia, the Christian philosophy of Supersessionism has explained that the Old Testament “chosen people” was indeed Israel, but all the promises and blessings that God gave to Israel have now been superseded as God has now placed His blessing on the church. The legal/theological foundation for Supercessionism is found in the legal “rejecting of Christ” by national Israel by her leaders. Supercessionism concedes that while the first disciples were Jewish, that matters not, because they were simply individual Jews. Israel’s leaders formally, and legally rejected Jesus and thus the national blessings for Israel were taken away.

Supercessionism (the belief that the church replaced Israel) is the basis for all Christian persecution of Jews. When emphasis is on things like from Matthew 27:25, “…all the people answered, ‘His blood be on us and on our children.’” – or as you have stated “the Sanhedrin condemned Jesus to die” you can know it is a pretext and justification for Supercessionism.

“Sanhedrin” is an Aramaic word. The Greek New Testament contains quite a few Aramaic and Hebrew words that are transliterated into a Greek form. “Sandhedrin” is not one of them. It is not found once in any Greek text of the New Testament. When English translators choose to insert “Sanhedrin” into the English text, they do so for the purpose of promoting Supercessionism The Greek word they are reading in every instance is the word sune÷drion [sundrion]. It is the noun form of the verb “to plan” or “to give counsel.” The word is found in many places that have nothing to do with the official body called the “Sanhedrin” and yet, the translators chose to apply that word when it suits their theological bias.

“For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” Romans 11:29

I read about small Messianic groups here in America, but know no one who actually belongs. My grandfather was Jewish, but I always thought myself Goyim.

I trained for nursing in a very large NYC training hospital. The Jews I met there are more likely to become Messianic because they are not rigid Hassidic Jews, who are very volatile towards unbelievers and. are like the Muslims should a family member “see the Light”! Having been to Israel many times, my son currently studying at Hebrew University as a Biblical Major for his Masters program, he’s had many opportunities to speak on the side with his professors, many of who see, very close, and our son says he thinks some are closet believers.

They attend a Messianic congregation that meets Saturday mornings when not under lockdown. I see many Jews that I think would be open to the gospel because they are not of the extreme sects, that even many Jews have little to do with. however these extreme sects have a lot of power, which is what Netanyahu attempted to avoid because the people reject their rigidness.

However, I believe the numbers of Jewish believers will increase because of the persecution and the events that are soon to unfold in the Middle East. We are to provoke them to jealousy, not cause them to further fall away, so we need to be careful when speaking to them, They must show interest, we don’t just approach them and unload guilt on them. We are already suspect because of historical events that they do not forget nor do many forgive.

I was welcomed to most of my Jewish friends houses, even for Passover, which I enjoyed & prayed they’d have their eyes opened to the Truth. It takes a lot of time & patience. One must be diligent, but not pushy. the Bible states they will be restored when they call upon the Name of the Lord to save them,. when they come to the end of themselves and realize that He is their Lord & Savior. May it be soon & may many take heed to the warnings of Scripture which are unfolding rapidly before our eyes!

I was speaking of secret believers but yes, there are changes, even visible ones - but we don't have to see it to know that someday Israel will acknowledge and welcome their/our Messiah, Yeshua/Jesus. Mostly likely not through evangelistic efforts on the part of Christians who are viewed at best suspiciously (as they should be), but rather by direct revelation as is already occurring among some individuals as seemingly was the case with Rabbi Simcha Pearlmutter. I mention him only has an example.

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! Romans 11:11-12

Replacement theology as this is called has done much harm to Jewish and Gentile relations. Having lived in Turkey for 6 years, one realizes the mindset of the ME is MUCH different then the western. We forget even recent history, so now you have the large numbers of people believing against ridiculous odds that socialism is a great thing. They forget the 20th century altogether. But the ME doesn’t forget nor forgive. Therefore one must win them over slowly, change their perceptions of what they believe. It is heartbreaking to see the many who continue to believe that all Israel is lost and suspect that Messianic Jews can’t be true believers bc they have a past of shunning Jesus. One must go back to Moses to realize that the changing of the Jewish mind & heart to receive Messiah is under very dire circumstances, when their back is against the wall and they realize the only salvation is through God and that they become willing to see Jesus as the True Messiah, not jut a miracle worker, good teacher. Many of us act much the same w ay bc we are not living as if Jesus is our Lord, but just “fire” insurance. A way to stay out of hell. WQe must pray in a different way to speak to our Jewish friends and live such lives that they are convicted in their Hearst’s by the Lord that they are wrong about Jesus..

Why Have Torah observant Jews,(among others), been sent into Exile for 2000 years and then recently brought back into the land, in unbelief as Ezekiel 36 says? You still haven’t addressed the question that the article has raised?

This is what they call "presuppositionalism," isn't it? Since there is no proof of the truth of chrstianity one is simply required to "presuppose" it . . . right?

You haven't addressed my points either. You are still assuming the truth of chrstianity from the outset. If you were to read the book of Deuteronomy you would see the prediction of the second exile in Parashat Ki Tavo' (Deuteronomy 26:1-29:8). If you were to actually read it without presupposing the truth of chrstianity you would see exactly why the second exile happened. Over and over and over and over the text says that the punishment is for turning away from the Torah. And you are claiming it is punishment for not turning away from the Torah! Some nerve.

It is really dishonest the way chrstian apologists quote this chapter to "prove" that the Jews were exiled because they didn't "accept the messiah" (there isn't even a commandment among all the 613 to "accept the messiah," since it won't be a matter of doubt). To twist this portion into warning against "rejecting the messiah" is the ultimate in dishonesty.

You also continue to ignore Deuteronomy 13, which plainly states that if anyone tries to tempt a Jew to abandon the Torah, even making prophecies that are fulfilled or even working miracles to "prove" it, one is to ignore them completely because G-d is testing the Jew to see if he truly loves HaShem. It's right there in black and white. But chrstians devoutly ignore this passage because it clashes with their presuppositions.

Here is the main point which you cannot refute: the Torah does not command anyone to believe in J*sus, and the Torah is the supreme revelation. It was not written under Divine inspiration but actually written by G-d Himself while Moses served merely as a stenographer. The Torah sits in judgment on all other claims of Divine revelation and is judged by none. Acceptance of the Torah isn't based on faith or "presuppositionalism" but on the fact that the Revelation at Sinai is self-vindicating. If such a claim could be made without it being true there would be similar claims throughout human history but there are none. Ergo, the Revelation at Sinai is the only claim of Divine Revelation in human history based on absolute certitude rather than on faith. The "new testament" doesn't interpret it. It judges the "new testament."

As a matter of fact, what you refuse to understand is that the Prophets and Writings (the rest of the Hebrew Bible) are not higher, but lower than the Torah. By definition any interpretation of anything in the Hebrew Bible that supposedly predicts the supersession of of Torah by something else is ipso facto false. The Torah interprets Isaiah, not vice versa. But since you simply cannot believe otherwise than that chrstianity must be true, you refuse to see this.

Another factor is the theological corner you paint yourself into via your Calvinism (and I actually respect John Calvin). You are absolutely convinced that G-d cannot simply forgive a sin. If He were to simply forgive any sin He would "topple from His throne of Holiness." Every sin must be punished, and sin ultimately consists of being less perfect that G-d. But by definition, everything is and always will be less perfect than G-d. G-d did not reproduce Himself when He created, which debunks the claim that G-d must damn and punish everything that isn't as perfect as He is.

For you, every sin must be punished even if the sinner is forgiven. This is done by separating the sin from the sinner, placing it on a divine scapegoat, and then subjecting said scapegoat to a vicarious eternal damnation. Thus the sinner is forgiven, but the sin is punished, so that G-d can actually forgive a sinner without "toppling from His Throne of Holiness." You do not consider the alternative as even theoretically possible because you see yourself as doomed to hell unless someone else goes there in your place. Question: what justice is served if the sinner is forgiven but the sin is "punished???"

I once thought just as you do. And please understand that I do not have a happy, optimistic view of human nature. My view of the condition of my own soul is very much like Martin Luther's. But the fact remains that until Luther and Calvin no one taught what you are teaching. Fifteen hundred years of chrstianity scream bloody murder if a Protestant doubts the power of chrstian ritual and commandment to earn salvation for the sinner. This being the case, even if I do have a very "Lutheran" soul, a false religion is not the answer. If Protestantism's assumptions are not true (and historically they are not), then the only valid option, even for someone who feels like sin incarnated, is the Seven Laws of Noah (or Torah if one is Jewish). Certainly one cannot adjudge oneself so sinful that one must make up a new religion to take this sinfulness into account. G-d's solution is always true.

You have spent I don't know how long attacking Noachism. You ignore the fact that Noachides not only don't observe Torah but are actually forbidden to. Like low church Protestants, we don't have a specific worship service or ritual to perform because this belongs exclusively to the Jews. And most important of all, Noachides do not utilize a system of commandments and then merely throw J*sus on top as historical chrstianity does. It seems to me that your number one enemy is historical liturgical chrstianity, not Judaism or Noachism.

And one final point: while all the ancient churches are now liberal as all get-out and have bought into both evolution but also radical nineteenth century Biblical criticism. This came from liberal Protestantism. They also are members of the National and World Councils of Churches where they constantly rib elbows with their good pals the lesbian bishops of liberal Protestant churches. But if someone doubts evolution or insists that the Written Word of G-d must be totally inerrant, he is accused of being under "Protestant influence!" Can you think of anything more hypocritical? They reject their own ancient teachings and accept radical liberal Protestant Biblical criticism to "prove" they aren't "rednecks!" This is from nothing but contempt. (And traditional Orthodox Jews reject Biblical criticism and most reject evolution, btw.) Why you insist on attacking Noachism in the face of all this is beyond me. I realize you must attack it as false based on your beliefs, but it deserves nothing like the attention you are giving it.

I realize I'm wasting my time on you, but I pray that it be His Will that this will help someone who is searching for the truth.

They went to Babylon and came back. Who was in charge of Israel then? They were exiled to Egypt and came back. Had Israel disappeared all during those times?

Well then it appears both you and paster*** are on the side of the "Palestinians". Okay. I'm on the side of G-d who gave the land to the Jews in perpetuity. There always was and always be Israel.

When Pilate asked the rulers of the temple about Jesus being their King, they shouted they had no king but Caesar. When asked what to do with Jesus, they demanded that He be crucified. When given another chance to spare Jesus because Pilate stated that he found no fault with Jesus, he offered them a choice between Barabbas & Jesus, but they chose Barabbas.

This generation chose insurrection against God, just as previously, they chose to have kings over them instead of God as their king. There was no national repentance for their sin, even when it became obvious that Jesus rose from the dead and was the True Son of God. They hid the Truth from their own people, changing to a different calendar so as to muddle the purpose of the feasts so the people could not recognize that Jesus came the very day He was supposed to arrive, and every event that was of prophetic significance would not be recognized. The priests and rabbis no longer spoke of the coming of a Messiah, so He was not recognized although they had the Biblical texts at hand to know. Only a remnant would follow after Jesus.

God spoke through Jeremiah that Israel would pay double for all her sins, and in Daniel it states that the end would not come until 3 things were accomplished. 1.) The holy city would put an end to transgression, 2.) they would put an end to sin, & 3.) atone for wickedness in order to bring in everlasting Righteousness. This happens, as I understand it, at the end of the 70 weeks of Daniel. Israel is very much still a country that is NOT trusting in God, has still relied upon others to keep her& protect her. Not until that day that they confess their national sins and the 3 things mentioned above are complete will God truly intervene and draw all the remnant of Israel to Himself. 2 Chronicles 7:14.

Thanks for responding. This is the outline of the story:
1) Man sinned and can no long be in union with a Holy God;’
2) God set up rules - sacrifices - by which man could be made Holy so man could approach God (the details are very specific and take as long as a week for the priest);
3) God also set up sacrifices which enabled men to be at peace with their God;
4) These had always been temporary until the coming of the promised Messiah (Christ in Greek);

I will start with an if - “if” God sent His Son to pay the price for our sin, such that we could receive Holiness - thus we could approach God - “then” He would expect everyone (especially his chosen Jews) to accept that offer. Those who would not would be outside the Grace of God which His Son had made available.

For about fifteen years the early church was made up exclusively of Jews. But this good news was too good to keep, so Gentiles were drawn to it also. They would never be part of the faithful Jewish remnant who formed the early church but could be “grafted into” the true vine of the Jewish people.

Salvation from Sin is now offered to all through Messiah, but to those who reject it, re-unification with the Father is not longer available - that temple has been destroyed.

God wants us to see this - to know him. And there is an easy way verify the reality of Messiah. Simply pray: “God, I do not know if any of this is true - such a strange story. But if it is, please revel this to me in a way which I can understand and accept. I really want - I really need - to know. Amen.”

“If” God is real - He will answer this prayer. Just pray it sincerely - God is very serious about this, and so should you be.

Peace

Very well said!

Why is it that God scattered the Jews, driving them out of the Land he gave them and putting them into exile these long millennia? What was the pivotal point of departure, two thousand years ago

You did not address the title of the article, so are we to assume that you think the reason Israel was scattered was because of "the Noachide error" as the title suggests? If so, then you are being anachronistic. While Judaism since the time of the Talmud (6th Century) has maintained that the "Noachide" plan for Gentiles was through the Seven Commands, there is no mention at all prior to the Tosefta of the Seven Commands. The Tosefta is late 2nd Century, a sort of appendix to the Mishnah. There is no mention at all in the Mishnah, or the Dead Sea Scrolls, either. None. Some in Christianity have sought to take the four instructions from the Acts 15 council as being "Noachide" but once again, this is anachronistic. In textual terms, the Noachide Laws date to at least 100 years after the Book of Revelation was written.

So, maybe you were drawing upon a supposed era that ended with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70, culminating in the salting of Jerusalem itself in the early 2nd Century? If so, the answer to your question about how Judaism reasons that event is simple: because of "Sinat Chinam" [Baseless Hatred].

You made one point that seems quite shocking in light of Genesis 49:10. You said, "The scepter had departed from Judah."

Genesis 49:10 says, "The scepter shall to depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet until Shiloh comes to him and to him be the obedience of the peoples.

I am assuming you think that the underlined word "until" denotes an end of an era, or a condition. The Hebrew word "ki" is merely a conjunction. Here it is pointing to the purpose of the scepter residing in Judah - not residing until something future takes place. Most Jewish and Christian commentators think the mention of "Shiloh" is a mention of Messiah - and hence, the ultimate result of the Davidic line is Messiah - but that is not an end to the Kingship when Messiah comes. Both Jewish and Christian commentators maintain that Messiah is King.

There always was and always be Israel.

On this, it is clear that G-d and you agree. Me too.

Thanks. There are those that pander to the non-existent people called Palestinians.