"I knew my brother was suffering." ~ Ancient Roots of the Doctrine of Purgatory, Part I

Gloria Romanorum ^ | Florentius

[Antoninus]

The idea of Purgatory as an intermediary state between Heaven and Hell is one of the most misunderstood and occasionally ridiculed aspects of Catholic doctrine. Though it is common for Protestants and even some Catholics to assume that Purgatory has no foundation in Sacred Scripture, that claim is actually false. The need for Purgatory developed from a close reading of Scripture by the Fathers of the Church, and the concept has a provenance stretching back to the earliest days of the Church. Furthermore, it has come to my attention recently that the Orthodox have a similar understanding of the need for purification before entering Heaven, even if their understanding of that purgation is not the same as that of the Catholic Church.

See Part II of this post here.

One of the earliest accounts of a Purgatory-like place comes from an unexpected source, indeed one of the Mothers of the Church, rather than one of the Fathers. Dating from about AD 203, the authentic account of the Passion of Saint Perpetua details a poignant vision which Perpetua experienced immediately prior to her martyrdom. The words of this early Christian martyr, as written in Latin in her prison diary, speak for themselves:

After a few days, while we were all praying, on a sudden, in the middle of our prayer, there came to me a word, and I named Dinocrates. And I was amazed that that name had never come into my mind until then, and I was grieved as I remembered his misfortune. And I felt myself immediately to be worthy, and to be called on to ask on his behalf. And for him I began earnestly to make supplication, and to cry with groaning to the Lord.

Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age who died miserably with disease—his face being so eaten out with cancer, that his death caused repugnance to all men. For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other. And moreover, in the same place where Dinocrates was, there was a pool full of water, having its brink higher than was the stature of the boy, and Dinocrates raised himself up as if to drink. And I was grieved that, although that pool held water, still, on account of the height to its brink, he could not drink. And I was aroused, and knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayers would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birthday of Geta Cæsar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me.

Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright, and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar, and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy's navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water. And Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment.

While mysterious and certainly not covering all of the Catholic Church's criteria for Purgatory, Perpetua's vision seems to confirm the belief that the souls of the dead benefit from the prayers of the living, particularly those about to endure martyrdom for the sake of Christ.

Update: September 4, 2018:

The Passion of Saints Perpetua and Felicitas is related in full in I Am a Christian: Authentic Accounts of Christian Martyrdom and Persecution from the Ancient Sources. This book is a collection of the best ancient sources on the persecution of early Christians and well worth having if you are interested in this topic.

Some additional sources on the origin of Purgatory, including a large excerpt from Pope Saint Gregory the Great who formalized much of what we believe about Purgatory today, will be included in a subsequent post.

[daniel1212]

One of the earliest accounts of a Purgatory-like place comes from an unexpected source

No, not unexpected, but outside Scripture, which does not teach RC (EOs tend to reject yours) made-up Purgatory.

In contrast to this, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:7f)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

And to go more in depth on this, Purgatory is based upon a false premise, not only that there is a need for further atonement for some sins after death, but that justification is on the basis of actual  righteousness, which is first attained  via the act itself of baptism (and which for infants means without even having to repent and to believe on the Lord Jesus with all their heart, which is contrary to Acts 2:38; 8:36,37; 10:43–47- 15:7–9) effecting  "infused” righteousness, for in RC theology one is formally justified by their own righteousness. (Catholic Encyclopedia>Sanctifying Grace) 

However, since  since the unholy sin nature remains, then  after baptism unless the baptized is one of the very few who has become perfect in character in this life and dies in that state, then entering Heaven can only be attained  by attaining perfection of character ("by grace") thru postmortem “purifying punishments” and sufferings, commencing at death, in order to be with God.
 

But which is contrary to what Scripture most manifestly teaches, which is that of penitent faith  appropriating justification, with effectual faith being that purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) and is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) and renders one accepted in the Beloved (on His account) and positionally seated together with their Lord in Heaven. (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6) 

 From  where they positionally await the Lord's return and His final subduing of our "vile body," that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body," (Philippians 3:21)and which is the only transformative change after this life that the Scriptures speak of.

At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

However, this saving justifying faith is a faith which effects obedience by the Spirit, (Romans 8:14) in word and in deed, in heart and in life, whereby "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, (Romans 8:4) insofar as we do. 

 And since faith and works go together like light and heat, sometimes they are used interchangeably as to what they effect. And which obedience includes penitent confession when convicted of not pleasing the Object of his faith for salvation, the risen Lord Jesus.

The appeal to the believer is to produce fruit consistent with faith, as a consequence of being accepted in the Beloved (on His account), to be practically (in heart and deed) as they are positionally in Christ, to be as much conformed to the Lord Jesus in this life as we can be, and will be in the resurrection. (Philippians 3:7-21)

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:25)

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:1-4)

But which progressive practical sanctification is not the cause of the sinner's justification and acceptance in Christ, but testifies to such being a believer, evidencing "things which accompany salvation," (Hebrews 6:9) and fit to be rewarded. (Revelation 3:4) For this faith, as manifested in said obedience, God will recompense (Hebrews 10:35) under grace, even though it is God who motivates and enables all obedience, (Philippians 1:12,13) while the only thing we can and must take credit for it our disobedience.

In contrast to this salvation by effectual faith, is salvation by grace thru works, as in Roman Catholicism, in which, to reiterate, it is taught that by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God via the act of baptism. And which act itself is said to regenerate and render them good enough to go to Heaven, and formally justified by their own righteousness.


However, since the carnal nature remains - and in Catholic theology few successfully attain to complete victory over any attachment to sin and perfection of character which is said to be necessary to enter Heaven - then most baptized souls are sent to Roman Catholic (EOs trend to reject Rome's) Purgatory to endure purifying torments to atone for sins they sufficiently failed to provide for while on earth, and to become good enough to enter glory.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states, “whosoever comes into God's presence must be perfectly pure for in the strictest sense His "eyes are too pure, to behold evil" (Habakkuk 1:13).

The Catholic Encyclopedia also states that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc. (City of God XXI.24.)

And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness".

One "cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested." (Catholic Encyclopedia>Purgatory) 
 

CCC 1023: Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ...(provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .)

"Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected." - John Paul II, Audiences, 1999.

Catholic professor Peter Kreeft states,

"...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224

"The purpose of purgatory is to bring you up the level of spiritual excellence needed to experience the full-force presence of God." (Jimmy Akin, How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants).

Roman Catholics also invoke the exhortation of Matthew 5:48: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"  (Matthew 5:48) as a requirement to be with God, actually presuming that that they can attain the perfection of God in this life or in RC purgatory! 

There is some wiggle room as regards the conditions of purgatory since what this suffering actually entails, and how long, for such are are not dogmatically taught, but while salvation by grace thru faith as in sola fide means it is effectual faith being imputed for righteousness that justifies, salvation by grace thru works means that by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God, which premise either requires perfection of character in this life (and which merely being made clean in baptism would actually not effect) or postmortem purifying torments.

However, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:7f)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

In addition, the whole premise that suffering itself perfects a person is fallacious , since testing and perfection of character requires being able to choose btwn alternatives, and which this world provides. Thus it is only this world that Scripture speaks development of character, such as "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations." (1 Peter 1:6)

And even in making the Lord "perfect" as in experiencing testing, being "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin," (Hebrews 4:15) then it was in this world: "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." (Hebrews 2:10)

For support,  Catholics cite 2 Maccabees  12;44-46 (atonement for the dead to free them from sin ).

However, of what support is that of praying for men whom the text clearly stated were slain for their idolatry, which is a mortal sin? Meanwhile believing this book was Scripture proper was not required until after Luther died, almost 1400 years after the last book was penned.

Other texts which Catholic  often attempt t use for support are as follows:

•  1 Peter 3:18-20;4:6 ( Peter preaching to the spirits in prison ) ,

Which was to the lost souls like those of Noah's day, "wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water," and it is obvious they had not attained to perfection of character. But with His resurrection (Matthew 27:52) the Lord set free those in Abraham's bosom, (Ephesians 4:8,9) which is not purgatory but OT paradise (Luke 23:43) which is now Heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:4) 

• 1 Cor 15:29-30  (baptizing the dead)

Which text Mormons also use in attempting to support their false teaching,  and it supports nothing than was it was invoked for, that of their being a resurrection which some ("they," says Paul, not "we") thought postmortem baptism would effect, but with nothing inferred as purgatory. And which the Holy Spirit would never fail to clearly teach on, if it indeed was of Catholic importance. 

• 1 Cor 3:15 (saved through fire)

Utterly invalidated as explained below in bold, by God's grace. 

• Mt 5:26 (where you will not be released until you pay the last penny)

So you must resort to dark sayings. Rather than Matthew 5:25-26 being "explicit about Purgatory" as Staples imagines this either refers to this life, or punishment in Hell, which is the context of Matthew 5:24-25 (Matthew 5:22; Matthew 5:27-29; cf. Mark 9:43), and Caths argue (Mt. 1:25) that "until" need not mean a terminus is inferred.

And here this story cannot be analogous to purgatory, since that is for forgiven souls who have some expiation to make for venial sins, but in Matthew 5:22-26, rather than a mere venial sin, the description here is of a "mortal sin." And neither was this man forgiven, but was damned, and given the vast amount he had to pay, i think "Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing" (Matthew 5:26) is saying he never will come out, • Mt 12:32 (sin is forgiven in this age or the next)

That is simple, except Rome rejects the 1,000 year reign of Christ in which there will be sin and forgiveness of sins, as Ezekiel shows in his many chapters which defy then as being mere allegory. • 1 John 5:16-17 (degrees of sin distinguished)

Which refers to apostasy, and there are degrees of sin, and of accountability and guilt, thus degrees of punishment, (Matthew 11:20-24) but which description are only about Hell, not some interim place.

• Mark 9:49 (all will be salted by fire)

Which is simply another example of the egregious extrapolation you must resort to in order attempt to postulate some sort of support for what you can only wish Scripture manifestly taught, but which it does not!
Here the only postmortem reality that is seen in the context is that of Hell: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:48) and otherwise it speaks of salt (Mark 9:49,50; cf. Lev. 2:13; Eze 43:24) which represent holiness, which works for peace, and one either has it or they are good for nothing, (Mt. 5:13) and and there is nothing that infers purgatory in order to get it or more of it, though this would be one of many places we could expect to see it if it were true.

[daniel1212]

This cleansing is wholly the act of God; the souls in Purgatory are completely passive to God's cleansing action.

Wrong: Besides making expiation for sins, the cleansing of RC Purgatory is about perfection of character:

The Catholic Encyclopedia also states that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc. (City of God XXI.24.)

And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness". (Catholic Encyclopedia>Purgatory)

"Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected." - John Paul II, Audiences, 1999.

Catholic professor Peter Kreeft states,

"...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224

"The purpose of purgatory is to bring you up the level of spiritual excellence needed to experience the full-force presence of God." (Jimmy Akin, How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants).

But in Scripture and in life, the whole premise that suffering itself perfects a person is fallacious , since testing and perfection of character requires being able to choose btwn alternatives, and which this world provides. Thus it is only this world that Scripture speaks development of character, such as "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations." (1 Peter 1:6)

And even in making the Lord "perfect" as in experiencing and victoriously passing testing, being "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin," (Hebrews 4:15) then it was in this world: "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." (Hebrews 2:10)

Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.” (Matthew 10:21-35) Asking for forgiveness through faith alone is not enough. Our Lord clearly shows that we must also, by his grace, remove the disorder of the heart that causes us to sin against both God and our neighbors. If this is not accomplished here, then God will finish this operation in Purgatory.

It's Matthew 18:21-35, not 10:21-35, and wresting Matthew 10:21-35 to support Purgatory is desperate, for this villain could not be a believer after what he did, and there is zero repentance on his part or even the offer of it, and instead he is one who has denied the faith, worse than the man who has done so by refusing to provide for his own. (1 Tim. 5:8) And no, I do not support OSAS.

As for "until he should pay back the whole debt," that was hardly possible, and you all contend that "until" does not always denote a termination and change.

More in my post above, by the grace of God. Other attempts to support RC purgatory from Scripture are also fallacious.

Give it up.

[ealgeone]

>>Perfected. Not partial. “Perfected for all time.” <<

You are conflating forgiveness with cleansing.

The RC is not recognizing just what Christ has done for us.

13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Colossians 1:13 NASB

******

Paul writes further.....

19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Colossians 1:19-23 NASB

[daniel1212]

Hence, “It is finished!” What was finished was the new paschal sacrifice which began at the Last Supper. If we were to take these words in an absolute sense the you would also have to say that faith itself is not necessary. What was finished was the Atonement of Christ, by faith in whom believers are "washed, sanctified and justified, (1 Co. 6:11) and made "accepted in the Beloved" (on His account) and positionally seated together with their Lord in Heaven. (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6) 

 From  where they positionally await the Lord's return and His final subduing of our "vile body," that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body," (Philippians 3:21)and which is the only transformative change after this life that the Scriptures speak of.

And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:11-14)

[daniel1212]

Where did the souls of the holy people of ancient Israel go after they died?

To "Paradise," "Abraham’s bosom:"

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:42-43)

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; (Luke 16:22)

Which was a place of comfort, not torment:

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (Luke 16:23-25)

And now Paradise is the 3rd heaven:

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:2)

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (Ephesians 4:8-10)

[GBA]

A lot of info and many opinions. Thanks!

Because I believe in the principle of the hierarchy, I believe there are levels to all things in this realm, as well as beyond this into the heavenly realms.

There, I believer there are the levels of Heaven from the highest to lowest, which is probably Purgatory and then the levels of Hell on down to the very lowest level.

I believe it is our sins, especially our unforgiving sins, that determine our level.

Practically speaking, it might be that sin lowers our energy, perhaps by draining Grace(?), or it lowers our vibration/frequency/“light”, perhaps with a dampening effect, but to discuss that would be too “metaphysical” and we are already there now as it is.

I see things in Scripture that seems to speak to such concepts, but that’s really not its purpose or focus for the seeker/reader/student/believer/follower of God.

[Mark17]

among others, the biggest problem with the mythical doctrine of purgatory is it diminishes Christ’s sacrifice for us.

I wonder if that wasn’t the intention all along? I don’t know for sure, I just wonder what was behind it?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“ I wonder if that wasn’t the intention all along? I don’t know for sure, I just wonder what was behind it? ”

...

Paganism.

[Petrosius]

among others, the biggest problem with the mythical doctrine of purgatory is it diminishes Christ’s sacrifice for us.

And how does God cleansing us of our last remains of our sinful inclinations diminish Christ's sacrifice for us? Rather, it fulfills the purpose of that sacrifice. Our redemption is more than just from the punishment of sin. It is our redemption from our sinful nature itself. Protestantism is a return to the legalistic view of the Pharisees that sees our relationship with God solely on the basis of law and external actions. It is contrary to all that Jesus actually taught.

[Mark17]

Paganism

Yes, I agree, purgatory is paganism, but what motivated them to introduce paganism?

[smvoice]

Re: Posts 56,57. Romans 10:17:
“So then FAITH COMETH by HEARING, and HEARING by THE WORD OF GOD.”
This says that Scripture IS the SOURCE of our FAITH

[daniel1212]

Because I believe in the principle of the hierarchy, I believe there are levels to all things in this realm, as well as beyond this into the heavenly realms. There, I believer there are the levels of Heaven from the highest to lowest, which is probably Purgatory and then the levels of Hell on down to the very lowest level.

That is not Heaven in Scripture, which is never described as a place of suffering, though I am sure they will be tears at the judgment seat of Christ when we see how we could have glorified the Lord who gave Himself for us, but which event does not occur until the Lord's return, and the suffering of the loss of rewards is not to enable one to be be with the Lord, which all believers are at death, and one is saved despite the some of the works that was supposed to build the church with not standing the test of fire.

Go back and read again what I documented. wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:7f)

And as David tells us, Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore. (Psalms 16:11)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

I believe it is our sins, especially our unforgiving sins, that determine our level.

Holding grudges certainly results in loss of joy, and a degree of chastisement even if we are not conscious of doing so, as with a sin of ignorance. But if we are aware of it and impenitently refuse to "drop the charges" in our heart in the Lord's long-suffering despite being convicted of our sin, then we are denying the faith, by which we were forgiven as born again believers. And to die in that state is to forfeit what faith obtained.

And choosing to forgive and doing so can be hard: Corrie Ten Boom Story on Forgiving

“It was in a church in Munich that I saw him—a balding, heavyset man in a gray overcoat, a brown felt hat clutched between his hands. People were filing out of the basement room where I had just spoken, moving along the rows of wooden chairs to the door at the rear. It was 1947 and I had come from Holland to defeated Germany with the message that God forgives.... “And that’s when I saw him, working his way forward against the others. One moment I saw the overcoat and the brown hat; the next, a blue uniform and a visored cap with its skull and crossbones... [Betsie and I had been arrested for concealing Jews in our home during the Nazi occupation of Holland; this man had been a guard at Ravensbruck concentration camp where we were sent.]

“Now he was in front of me, hand thrust out: ‘A fine message, Fräulein! How good it is to know that, as you say, all our sins are at the bottom of the sea!’ “And I, who had spoken so glibly of forgiveness, fumbled in my pocketbook rather than take that hand. He would not remember me, of course—how could he remember one prisoner among those thousands of women? “But I remembered him and the leather crop swinging from his belt. I was face-to-face with one of my captors and my blood seemed to freeze.

“ ‘You mentioned Ravensbruck in your talk,’ he was saying, ‘I was a guard there.’ No, he did not remember me. ‘But since that time,’ he went on, ‘I have become a Christian. I know that God has forgiven me for the cruel things I did there, but I would like to hear it from your lips as well. Fräulein,’ again the hand came out—’will you forgive me?’

“And I stood there—I whose sins had again and again to be forgiven—and could not forgive. Betsie had died in that place—could he erase her slow terrible death simply for the asking? “It could not have been many seconds that he stood there—hand held out—but to me it seemed hours as I wrestled with the most difficult thing I had ever had to do.

“For I had to do it—I knew that. The message that God forgives has a prior condition: that we forgive those who have injured us. ‘If you do not forgive men their trespasses,’ Jesus says, ‘neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.’..

“And still I stood there with the coldness clutching my heart. But forgiveness is not an emotion—I knew that too. Forgiveness is an act of the will, and the will can function regardless of the temperature of the heart. ‘… Help!’ I prayed silently. ‘I can lift my hand. I can do that much. You supply the feeling.’ “And so woodenly, mechanically, I thrust my hand into the one stretched out to me. And as I did, an incredible thing took place. The current started in my shoulder, raced down my arm, sprang into our joined hands. And then this healing warmth seemed to flood my whole being, bringing tears to my eyes. “ ‘I forgive you, brother!’ I cried. ‘With all my heart!’

“For a long moment we grasped each other’s hands, the former guard and the former prisoner. I had never known God’s love so intensely, as I did then”

(excerpted from “I’m Still Learning to Forgive” by Corrie ten Boom. Reprinted by permission from Guideposts Magazine. Copyright © 1972 by Guideposts Associates, Inc., Carmel, New York 10512>). - http://www.familylifeeducation.org/gilliland/procgroup/CorrieTenBoom.htm

[trebb]

What did these folks ‘witness”? Did they follow the souls of the freshly dead to the “gates of Purgatory”?
Funny how the Blood of Jesus can wash away all our sins, past/present/future, and make us pure in the eyes of the Lord, but leaves some residual stains that must be cleansed before we can meet our God who pre-purified us...what are we, dirty socks?

[Iscool]

“ Purgatory is only for those with venial sins to be purged from their souls. No one with sin on his/her soul enters heaven. ”

.....

Chapter and verse please??

There is no chapter and verse...It's not something that Jesus ever said or taught...It falls under Cathological Myth...

[Iscool]

And here we have the Protestant misunderstanding of redemption. Redemption is not merely the payment of a penalty for our external sinful acts; it is the cleansing of the disordered habits of the soul that cause us to sin. This cleansing is wholly the act of God; the souls in Purgatory are completely passive to God's cleansing action. Protestantism is a return to the external legalism of the Pharisees which our Lord opposed. As for someone having mentioning it, is Jesus good enough:

Asking for forgiveness through faith alone is not enough. Our Lord clearly shows that we must also, by his grace, remove the disorder of the heart that causes us to sin against both God and our neighbors. If this is not accomplished here, then God will finish this operation in Purgatory.

(Matthew 10:21-35) 18:21-35...

It is reasonable to come to that conclusion, IF YOU ARE COMPLETELY IGNORANT OF THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURES...Or if you are a deceiver and refuse to let those you teach and listen to you know the actual truth...

You ever read the Pauline Epistles, the Epistles written to the church??? I know you have because we have posted those scriptures countless times here at FR...

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Mark, it is first, the history of mankind to turn from the true God to idols.

Just look at the OT.

Instead of God, many turned to a golden calf.

Instead of God, many worshipped a bronze snake.

Instead of God as ruler of a nation, they wanted a man, so they could be like the other nations.

Paganism never loses is pull

Just look at the worship of idols of fertility Rome is featuring currently.

20 years from now, they will join “sacred tradition” with the other pagan practices.

[SERE_DOC]

Neither has there been a deification in scripture of Mary.

Yet here we are.

[Elsie]

The need for Purgatory...

REALLY??

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“ There is no chapter and verse...It’s not something that Jesus ever said or taught...It falls under Cathological Myth..”

As was my point.

[Elsie]

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Such a truncation of Scripture leads to faulty concepts of it.

---

2 Corinthians 5:8

(ASV)  we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

(CJB)  We are confident, then, and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and come to our home with the Lord.

(DARBY)  we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

(ESV)  Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

(KJV)  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

(NASB)   we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

(NIV)   We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

(NKJV)   We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

(RSV)  We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

 

 

Leaving out man's PREFERENCE when 'quoting' this verse leaves a vastly different impression in the minds of people.

Nothing indicates that a person WILL be with the Lord immediately after death.  

 

This begins in childhood when the kid is told that little Fluffy is now 'with Jesus' when her cat is flattened by a car,

or that Gramma is 'with Jesus' when she died.