"I knew my brother was suffering." ~ Ancient Roots of the Doctrine of Purgatory, Part I

Gloria Romanorum ^ | Florentius

[SkyDancer]

Because of the non-deification of Mary???

[daniel1212]

It may be a slight detour from the thread, but I must post it. What I find most vexing is to try to forgive people who are NOT sorry for what they did to me. It is the act of the will, not emotional, and yet my emotions remain in such turmoil even after I intellectually decide to forgive.

Very good, in the spirit of Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. (James 5:16)

I myself unconsciously can go back to harboring a grudge of mistreatment I endured by another, even after choose to drop the charges in my heart, and thus must do so again, and which is what I want to do, and which frees up myself.

But the reason forgiving the impenitent or those who are ignorant of the harm they cause can be hard is because we have a strong sense of justice from early childhood on. One of the first things we typically say is "It's not fair!" Thus when we are wronged it seems right that the evil-doer should be made to face justice, and make apology and or reparations of whatever sort is fitting. And the idea of letting them go seems wrong in a real sense.

And indeed Scripture provides for confronting those who wronged us and excommunicating the impenitent.(Mt. 18:15ff) But this should be done out of principal, that the slandered etc. be corrected as one harmful to the name and body of Christ, which we should always be conscious us (preaching to self here), and not because we personally have a grudge.

For as I see it, we are not only to forgive those who are ignorant of what they are really doing in hurting us, as per the Lord and Stephen, (Luke 23:34; Acts 7:60) but while not being opposed to making known to the person who has injured us what he did, we are to take the higher road and not seek satisfaction:

Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. (1 Corinthians 6:7-8)

But while we should be holding a grudge toward a son who cracks up our car, yet for principle's sake then in love we can require him to pay for it, when he can, for the sake of teaching him responsibility. This is not a case of withholding forgiveness but of development of character.

However, in all this we should be focused on our own faults and how we are hurt others rather than vice versa.

But note also that there is also contrived injustice, in which the devil appeal our strong sense of justice to working to convince us that we were wronged when we were not, or to magnify some injustice that affected us, and inculcate a victim-entitlement mentality.

Which it seems the devil has, as if he was wronged by being abased due to his selfish assertive self-exaltation in the original "Occupy (the Throne)/Share the Wealth movement." . And then proceeded to seduce Eve into thinking she was being wrongfully treated by God since He should not withhold from her what God possessed (knowledge). And that thus she was justified in her disobedience to God to get what was rightfully here. Thus was born the first damnable Communist, liberal politician and turnstile jumper. Buyer beware of the devil/s goods.

[daniel1212]

I am becoming more mindful that “the rule” I use to measure/judge/criticize with is used to measure me, too, so I can’t claim ignorance should my time end with me in mid-criticism.

And then we wonder why we are chastised.

[GBA]

Right. The “wondering” part is one of His best teaching tools: “Who’s that knocking at my door?”

He will do/allow what is necessary to get us to that point, I suppose based upon us and what we give him with our wants and choices.

I’ve learned “the hard way” that I have several bundles of choice, kiln dried 2x10x20 planks in my eyes.

Fortunately, He’s teaching me how to drive my mental/emotional forklift so I can move them back to the warehouse where they belong.

Once I do that, I might, might, be qualified to help with anyone’s splinters, should anyone ever ask for my help.

[SERE_DOC]

Doctrinally in the Catholic church from my studies Mary is literally prayed to in supplication and intercessory prayer raising her to the status, as in the same position of Jesus as who is our propitiation to the Father.

Which is blasphemy and demeans the Triune God that is, God the Father God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit

[Iscool]

Nothing indicates that a person WILL be with the Lord immediately after death.

2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 

Paul doesn't give any middle ground here and he's pretty confident of it...Doesn't seem to say that he is willing to lay in the ground for a couple thousand years waiting to be able to be present with the Lord...

2Co 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 

And conversely, it appears to say that if we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord...

2Co 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

When Paul was out of his body, he was with the Lord, in heaven...

Act 21:13  Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus. 

Again, it would seem to be peculiar for Paul to be ready to die and lay in the ground in limbo for a couple of Centuries, especially knowing the Rapture could happen at any time where he would bypass that ground gig and go straight to heaven... 

Php_1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Again, again...What would be the gain for Paul to be worm food for 2000 years???

Php 1:23  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 

Paul's intention is to immediately be with Jesus Christ the moment he sheds his body at death...

[Iscool]

I don't have to consider that. I know that Purgatory exists. And I know that my prayers for the deceased are efficacious. How? Because I have experienced instances where those souls have asked me for them. And I know that the origins of such experiences aren't demonic because the prince of this world doesn't encourage Christians to pray to Jesus or attend Mass.

You need to get to a bible, quick...And spend some serious time in it with a lot of prayer...

2Co 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
  2Co 11:15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 

[Iscool]

You have to tell yourself this, even though you know in your heart that it is not true. As St. John Henry Newman said:
"To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant."

And John Henry Newman said he likes to share his bed with his boyfriend...So there's that...

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“ Mary is literally prayed to in supplication and intercessory prayer raising her to the status, as in the same position of Jesus as who is our propitiation to the Father.”

Well, she is Co-Redemptrix, so there’s that.

- Catholic Dude

“Hail Mary!”

[SkyDancer]

My Catholic friends say you “ask” Mary to intercede with her Son for you.

[GBA]

What does the Bible say happens to us when our body dies? What is that sleep? Do we “rest in peace” until final Judgement? If not, why not?

I’m not sure how it all works, and you can quote me on that, but ... fwiw ...

Regarding souls in Purgatory? If you choose to believe it, Jesus said this:

“I have delivered their soul from their body, I have shown them My Holy Face for just an instant, and at that very instant, their eyes, unveiled, facing Me in My Purity and in My Light, immediately saw The Truth face to face and realised how blemished their soul is from sin; and, in spite of their burning desire to fall in My open arms1 and follow Me, they understand that this is impossible before cleaning their soul; so with a piercing pain of sorrow, they fall back and prepare themselves to be purified; this hurts and burns them beyond words, because they cannot see Me, My absence is burning them, and the cause of their greatest suffering in purgatory is My Absence; they also undergo other sorts of sufferings, with fire, depending their sins;

prepare your soul, creation, in advance, do not wait for death to overshadow you; keep your soul clean and without blemish; feed yourselves with My Body, and drink My Blood as often as you can; repent often, be prepared for this day; be on fast, fasting helps you; listen to My Voice and prepare your soul as if our meeting would be for this very day; do not wait, waiting is sleeping, waiting is to leave your lanterns without oil; be prepared to meet your Saviour;

I hope that helps you as much as it does me.

Supposedly, not all souls feel this way. Some want nothing to do with Jesus in death, just as in life.

[Iscool]

So, if you can't abide by the Catholic Church whose side were YOU on during the Crusades?

For me, the Waldensians; bible believing Christians...

[Iscool]

Having been a plebe many times in life so far and generally not being one who seeks rank, I am none the less very curious about finding my place in the next life and what is required.

Act 16:30  And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 
Act 16:31  And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 

[daniel1212]

I’ve learned “the hard way” that I have several bundles of choice, kiln dried 2x10x20 planks in my eyes. Fortunately, He’s teaching me how to drive my mental/emotional forklift so I can move them back to the warehouse where they belong.

And evidently God also gave you a sense of humor and wisdom. Went to reading your homepage. A eclectic collection of some worthy stuff there. (but remove the vulgar word in Malcolm said...)

[Iscool]

What does the Bible say happens to us when our body dies? What is that sleep? Do we “rest in peace” until final Judgement? If not, why not?

I’m not sure how it all works, and you can quote me on that, but ... fwiw ...

Well I read it, and it's not worth anything...But I did like the baby blues on Jesus...Nice touch...

Regarding souls in Purgatory? If you choose to believe it, Jesus said this:

And why would any one choose to believe it when the words of God are available to set people straight???

“I have delivered their soul from their body, I have shown them My Holy Face for just an instant, and at that very instant, their eyes, unveiled, facing Me in My Purity and in My Light, immediately saw The Truth face to face and realised how blemished their soul is from sin; and, in spite of their burning desire to fall in My open arms1 and follow Me, they understand that this is impossible before cleaning their soul; so with a piercing pain of sorrow, they fall back and prepare themselves to be purified; this hurts and burns them beyond words, because they cannot see Me, My absence is burning them, and the cause of their greatest suffering in purgatory is My Absence; they also undergo other sorts of sufferings, with fire, depending their sins;

prepare your soul, creation, in advance, do not wait for death to overshadow you; keep your soul clean and without blemish; feed yourselves with My Body, and drink My Blood as often as you can; repent often, be prepared for this day; be on fast, fasting helps you; listen to My Voice and prepare your soul as if our meeting would be for this very day; do not wait, waiting is sleeping, waiting is to leave your lanterns without oil; be prepared to meet your Saviour;

Naw, Jesus never said that to anyone, including his mother...Or at least, the Jesus of the bible never said those things...

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want but do not make it personal.

Mind reading is making it personal.

[cloudmountain]

From Google:
The Waldensians are an ascetic movement within Christianity, reputedly founded by Peter Waldo in Lyon around 1173.

A History of Modern Waldensians
They share core tenets with Calvinists, including the priesthood of all believers, congregational polity and a "low" view of certain sacraments such as Communion and Baptism. They are members of the Community of Protestant Churches in Europe and its affiliates worldwide.

The Waldensians, Musée Protestant
The Waldensian movement started in Lyon towards the end of the 12th century and spread throughout Europe in the Middle Ages. It joined with the Reform Movement and they were violently persecuted, only able to maintain resistance in the Alpine valleys of the Piedmont. Today, their Church proudly remembers its tragic past and has members in the major towns of Italy as well as in Uruguay and Argentina.

Peter Waldo (1140-1217)
Vaudois Diaspora in the Middle Ages
© www.info-bible.org
The Waldesian movement took it’s name from Valdus or Waldo who, around 1170, following a crisis of conscience, sold his possessions and spent the rest of his life preaching the Gospel to his fellow men. To help the non-clergy understand the New Testament he had it translated into the language which was commonly used at that time, Provencal. His ideas spread all over Europe. Waldo and his disciples, “the Poor of Lyon“, were declared heretics by the Roman Catholic Church, mostly because in their community lay people, including women, were allowed to preach. They were excommunicated by Pope Lucius III in 1184.

Nevertheless, the “Poor of Lyons” continued to preach, but they were forced to lead underground lives because they were persecuted. Their main source of inspiration was the Sermon on the Mount. They advocated non-violence and refused to swear oaths, while also rejecting any compromise by the Church with those having political power.
Today, there are several active congregations of Waldensians in Europe, South America, and North America. Many groups have joined the Genevan or Reformed branch of Protestantism such as the Alliance of Reformed Churches of the Presbyterian Order.
The Waldensian movement (as they came to be called by their enemies) grew from strength to strength during the Middle Ages, in spite of persecution. In the 18th century it was based in Lombardy, around Milan. Later it spread to Austria and Southern Germany, where it was strongly influenced by the followers of Jan Hus. Large communities also became established in the Piedmont valleys. Their preachers, called “barbes” (i.e. “uncles”, so as not to be confused with the Catholic “fathers”) travelled throughout Europe regularly visit the small underground groups of followers

===============================

Is Google correct?
Just for information, how did you end up in that particular denomination?
Thank you for bringing it up. I had never heard of this group of Protestants. I learned something today. It is very interesting.

Pax tibi.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Thank you for bringing it up. I had never heard of this group of Protestants.

They are the group that Rome slaughtered, men, women, and children, including babies.

[cloudmountain]

They are the group that Rome slaughtered, men, women, and children, including babies.

Roman soldiers, gathered from ALL OVER THE ROMAN empire, kept the PAX ROMANA for centuries. And they weren't the first "empire" to slaughter millions. I guess you didn't read any history or don't remember that the history of the human race is a history of war.
Most historians agree that Genghis Khan was the mass murderer to end all mass murderers.
After he burned, looted, destroyed, etc., town after town all across the continent of Asia he would RETURN there not long after because he knew that people HID their money, treasures and daughters.
He would finish his massacre.

Google:
Genghis Khan(born Temüjin,[note 1] c. 1162 – August 18, 1227) was the founder and first Great Khan of the Mongol Empire, which became the largest contiguous empire in history after his death. He came to power by uniting many of the nomadic tribes of Northeast Asia. After founding the Empire and being proclaimed Genghis Khan, he launched the Mongol invasions that conquered most of Eurasia. Campaigns initiated in his lifetime include those against the Qara Khitai, Caucasus, and Khwarazmian, Western Xia and Jin dynasties. These campaigns were often accompanied by large-scale massacres of the civilian populations, especially in the Khwarazmian– and Western Xia–controlled lands. By the end of his life, the Mongol Empire occupied a substantial portion of Central Asia and China.

However, I doubt that you are interested in this mere history. It seems that you are really interested in making sure that your negative opinions of the Catholic Church are stated over and over and over and over and over again. THAT is your interest, it seems.

SO, pax tibi.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Sorry, but there is no excuse for Rome to martyr Christians living quietly in the mountains and practicing their faith.

It was evil.

That you minimize it is evil.