Posted on 01/17/2014 10:17:41 AM PST by dangus
Indeed they do. And since we are all sinners how can any of us not reject God? Are some people able to accept God without his supernatural intervention in changing their sinful nature?
Without God's freely given Grace to ALL we cannot accept Him.
Why do SOME not accept him?
So what is the difference? He knew they were Hell bound and created them anyway. Sounds just as monstrous as the picture you are painting.
Exo 20:20-21 Moses said to the people, "Do not fear, for God has come to test you, that the fear of him may be before you, that you may not sin." The people stood far off, while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.
We are always drawn to where God is.
Does Gid send men to Hell or does he just send their sins to Hell?
Does God punish the sins or the sinners?
Or do you not believe in Hell?
Where exactly, in anything that I have written in this thread, or anywhere else on FR, have I denied that hell exists? The answer is nowhere. Your hyperbole is not appreciated, nor expected from one who claims that Jesus is his Lord and Master! Are we not to model our behaviours on Jesus’ example?
You asked, "Does God punish the sins or the sinners?" I ask of you: Does God punish all sinners? The answer is a resolute, "NO!", elsewise, you, me, Billy Graham, in fact, everyone would be punished, as ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. God does not ‘punish’ His chosen ones, but He does allow chastisement to correct behaviour and to grow our faith. Those who don’t accept Jesus as Lord and Master ARE punished with eternity absent from God, in other words, hell. God does not send people to hell, people send THEMSELVES to hell because they REFUSE Jesus.
Even in that, He reveals His mercy! As those who have spent their lives avoiding His love, it would be unmerciful if God required that they spend their Eternity in His presence. The only place that is outside of His presence is hell. Therefore, in mercy, non-Believers spend eternity in hell. Unpleasant, but for them, better than eternity in the presence of a God they despise.
I sense a lot of hostility from your post.
I just asked a few questions. Don't take it so personally.
1 Pet 3:15
And vice versa, pal!
pal
noun
1. a friend.
So does this mean you consider me your friend?
That is a really good question.
The difference is choice. We have a choice to accept God's freely given Grace, do what he asks us to do, and accept the possibility of salvation. It is OUR choice, not God's. If I wind up in hell, I will know it is because of what I did. Not because an evil god created me to watch me suffer.
God gave us Free Will. It is our choice. God did not create us to reject Him.
That is a distinction without a difference. He predestines some, he hardens hearts, but He doesn't prevent people from accepting His freely given grace.
Salvation is not the result of your choices. It is entirely the result of God's choices.
So did the 'good thief' make a choice on his cross to accept Christ? He was saved because of his choice.
So is your position.
He predestines some, he hardens hearts, but He doesn't prevent people from accepting His freely given grace.
Exactly. God does not prevent anyone from accepting his grace or following him or anything else having to do with one's salvation.
So did the 'good thief' make a choice on his cross to accept Christ?
Yes he did. He was called and God's grace was extended to him. For him, it was irresistible grace. For the other thieves either they were not granted grace or the grace they were granted was not irresistible.
He was saved because of his choice.
That would make him his own Savior. He was saved because of Christ. If it were up to him, then he, like the other thieves would have mocked and rejected Christ.
Tell me, was the grace you were given resistible or irresistible?
Since you came to the Lord, would you not have to agree that whatever Grace you were given was the irresistible kind?
I don't know. If I am one who was predestined, it would be irresitable. But just as people can reject God's grace, they can accept it.
And no, my choice does not make me my own savior. Like Paul, "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as Scripture teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s freely given gift of grace that is working in me."
God does not prevent anyone from accepting his grace or following him or anything else having to do with one's salvation.
You are not making sense! You say he has predestined many to hell, so God prevents them from accepting His grace!
I said nothing of the sort. Go back and read what I wrote.
God does not prevent anyone from coming to Christ. Man's sin nature prevents everyone from coming to Christ. If you come to Christ it is only because God changed your nature so you would.
Who gets the final say in where you spend eternity, you or God?
I believe that, but you cannot believe what you believe and think this is true.
You believe the predestined will go to heaven. So do I. But you also believe those not predestined all go to hell. So by your logic God prevents all he does not predestine from coming to Christ.
Why do you insist on making this personal. I told you what I believe and my position is quite consistent.
The default road is the road to destruction. Without God's irresistible intervention into our lives to make us willing to come to him, we would all reject him. So everyone is, by default, on the road to Hell, but God saves some of us. It is not by any choice of mine that God chose to save me.
You may think that you made some voluntary choice to come to Christ, but the fact of the matter is that if you came, it was because God made you willing. He violated YOUR precious Free Will and as a result, he changed you so that you were now not only able to come to him, but willing.
Not everyone gets to that position, but you did. Was it because you were better, smarter or more holy than the guy who never got there?
You seem to be insistent that your own free will choices brought you to the foot of the Cross, but the fact of the matter is that God brought you there. You ought to be grateful because without God interfering with your precious free will, you'd still be on the road to Hell.
God does not prevent anyone from coming to Him. In fact, He calls and calls and calls. Never ceasing to call us to His loving arms. Trying all methods to bring us to Him. All the beauty around us-and all the tragedy that befalls us is meant to drive us to Him.
But we don't wish to come. We resist. We want that forbidden fruit. We want to murder our brother. God gave us His commandments simply to show us all the good things in life and we rebel against those commands. We want to commit all the things God has told us isn't for our good. When good things befalls us we boast in our self achievements. When tragedy strikes we shake our fist and say, "Why me God?" We are self-destructive. That is our choice. God is love and we rebel against this love.
But God still, after all this, wants to have fellowship with us. And for some of us like Moses, David, Samuel, John, Matthew, Peter, Paul and every other believer, God is gracious to change our hearts from stone to flesh. And we few believers receive mercy where we don't deserve it. Why He does this for us He tells us:
But the truth is, without God changing our hearts, no one would desire to be saved.
I am not making this personal. When I say 'you' I am refering to the words you have written. I am actually enjoying this discussion.
But you don't seem to be answering my questions, and I see many inconsistencies in what you say.
So I will ask a series of Yes/No questions.
Did God create people who are predestined to salvation?
Did God create people who are not predestined to salvation?
Do the people who are not predestined to salvation have any chance of salvation?
I believe the answers are Yes, Yes and Yes. I believe your answers are Yes, Yes and No.
You asked me one question in post 92 and I answered it in post 93.
In regard yo your response about whether those who are not predestined to salvation having a chance at salvation, I think your position is inconsistent unless you also take the position that when God creates a person he doesn't know whether or not he will be numbered among the elect.
I can only understand the logic of your position if you also believe that God does not know the end from the beginning; that God is not omniscient.
If God knows I will die on a date certain, is there any hope of my survival beyond that date? If so, then God's foreknowledge is imperfect and subject to change.
There are people who believe that God does not know the future. Are you one of them? If not, then please explain how someone who has not been predestined to salvation can possibly be saved.
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