MegaChurch or Catholic Church?

taylormarshall.com ^ | August 26, 2013 | Dr. Taylor Marshall

[fwdude]

Check out YouTube with a search for Marian worship. You’ll get an eye full.

[CynicalBear]

>> It’s had to take in the whole scope of it.<<

Well, maybe we should see the “whole scope”. Let’s take the prayer of Prayer of Pope Pius XII. [http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm]

I’ll use just the bolded excerpts from the prayer.

we cast ourselves into your arms

1 Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. (When did we need to replace God with Mary?)

confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

Hebrews 4:15-16 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (once again Catholics replacing Christ with Mary)

O crystal fountain of faith

Romans 12:3 according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. or "a measure of faith." (but Mary is the “fountain of faith” for Catholics)

Lily of all holiness

1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. (for Catholics however, “all holiness” is given to Mary)

Conqueress of evil and death

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (but Catholics claim it was Mary who conquered death)

Convert the wicked

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; (Catholics have even replaced the Holy Spirit with Mary)

Statement by catholic Bishop Liqouri “.......We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus.....” She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help” Need I go on? Catholics have replaced virtually every attribute and working of God and given that to Mary in their worship.

[metmom]

Breaking bread and drinking wine.

Do it in REMEMBRANCE.

Not re-enact it or re-sacrifice.

[FourtySeven]

Haha. Amen to that!

Lots and lots get their “understanding” of the Church from their adolescent experiences and/or websites galore.

I’ve often thought and still maintain if all the anti-Catholics went to Mass regularly, with an open mind/heart and no resistance against what may occur there, they would be transformed by the sublime mystery that is the Mass. At least transformed enough to ask/seek out honest answers to honest questions.

IOW it’s nakedly obvious to me (and I dare say others here) that those who oppose Catholic teaching at LEAST don’t know what they are rejecting. They reject a distorted notion of the Church, a notion so distorted by: uninformed adolescent experiences, experiences full of sorrow because of some evil person (wolf) IN the Church, some horrible misunderstanding based upon ignorance of the Church teaching, all (or any number of the former) wrapped inside a bubble of bias of their own construction.

If that’s too “personal”, if that “offends” someone reading this so be it. We both (you reading this and I) know its the truth. If you don’t want to admit it and feign “offense” I can’t stop you.

Wanna really “Challenge” Catholicism? Go to Mass every day for a year, praying each time before it starts, “God, show me your presence here”, and MEAN it. You’ll won’t be able to deny His Presence there then.

Go ahead, do it, if you have the courage to admit you might, just MIGHT, be wrong. Because as was said, and I’ve replied to here: the truth of Catholicism isn’t ultimately found in “debate” on the Internet. It’s found in the true, honest experience as an authentic human being: in the REAL world.

The realm of reality. Precisely where God is found.

[metmom]

We don’t need to go to mass to *find* God.

The Spirit of Christ lives in us, dwells in our hearts by faith. He’s with me ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE.

[BipolarBob]

Go to Mass every day for a year

I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. I've been to Catholic ceremonies. I see the statues and the priest robes and some sort of throne he sat on (like he was a king) and people looking at Mary statue when they come in and bowing and saying something. The whole thing gave me the heebie-jeebies. The hair on my neck was raised. I was sooo glad to get out of that place. I hope I never have to go to another but I have Catholic friends and am just a marriage or death away from another visit.

[CynicalBear]

That’s all well and good except Catholics believe forever virgin when saying “virgin birth” and “apostolic Church” (notice the capitalized church) neither which are substantiated by scripture.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

-— I’ve been to Catholic ceremonies. I see the statues and the priest robes and some sort of throne he sat on. ——

Did you see or hear anything like this?

I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest...

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”...

“Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever...”

He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne...

“a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head... She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”

[CynicalBear]

>> at LEAST don’t know what they are rejecting.<<

I for one most certainly do. Here’s and example.

God says.

Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God

Catholic Church says.

“We need not shrink from admitting that candles, like incense and lustral water, were commonly employed in pagan worship and the rites paid to the dead. But the Church from a very early period took them into her service, just as she adopted many other things indifferent in themselves, which seemed proper to enhance the splendor of religious ceremonial. We must not forget that most of these adjuncts to worship, like music, lights, perfumes, ablutions, floral decorations, canopies, fans, screens, bells, vestments etc. were not identified with any idolatrous cult in particular; but they were common to almost all cults” (Catholic Encyclopedia, III, 246.)

“When we give or receive Christmas gifts; or hang green wreaths in our homes and churches, how many of us know that we are probably observing pagan customs...the god, Woden, in Norse Mythology, descends upon the earth yearly between December 25th and January 6th to bless mankind...But pagan though they be, they are beautiful customs. They help inspire us with the spirit of 'good will to men', even as the sublime service of our Church reminds us of the ‘peace on earth’ which the babe of Bethlehem came to bestow” (Externals of the Catholic Church, 140).

I’ll keep following what God says and staying away from the pagan Catholic cult practices.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Hey, Catholics don't pray to statues anymore--- now we pray to felt banners...

(Just kidding, my dear metmom!)

Actually, it's fairly easy to find candles, kneeling, etc., at the Nativity scenes all over the Protestant world at Christmas

And here's everybody kneeling at a Nativity Scene devotion sponsored by Campus Crusade members in Children's Ministry (I don't know if you can see it, but there's the Star of Bethlehem):

As for praying to statues, nobody does that. I certainly never thought I was "praying to" some object, even as a 7-year-old. Statues are just wood, plaster --- no ears, y'know!

But here's a veteran praying on Memorial Day. Do you think he's committing idolatry?

Of course not. No reasonable person thinks that. He's praying to God --- I feel fairly confident of that.

[CynicalBear]

Well! Finally someone admits it. The guy sitting on the “throne” in the Catholic Church has replaced Christ here on earth.

[NYer]

Exodus 20:4-6 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent... Numbers 21:8-9

Now if God simply forbids the making of graven images, then there are problems elsewhere in the Bible. First, in Exodus 25:18-21, God commands Moses to make two statues of angels (cherubim) for the top of the Ark of the Covenant. Later in Numbers 21:8-9, God commands Moses to make a bronze serpent, so that the people who were bitten by snakes could look upon it and be healed.

The Church does NOT compel her members to kneel or pray before images. No one is allowed by the Church to pray to images since they have no ears to hear or power to help us. The Church allows for the veneration of images as long as the honor is directed towards Christ and His saints.

[CynicalBear]

Did anyone say idolatry is restricted to the Catholic Church? Idolatry is idolatry regardless of who does it. It’s the Catholic Church that promotes it.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I'm sorry --- I must have got switched around. That happens!

But it does illustrate how the stats can be confusing: for instance, how does the CIA World Book get that figure of 87% Catholic in Mexico? Parish active membership rolls? Baptismal records? Responses to a telephone survey? Is it on the Mexican census form?

And when they come here --- is somebody accurately polling the religious affiliation of the subset of Mexicans (6.1 million they're saying as of April 2012?) that's in the US illegally?

You see the overall point: it's not an exact science, this calculating of faith membership.

[Mrs. Don-o]

No.

[CynicalBear]

>> God commands Moses to make a bronze serpent, so that the people who were bitten by snakes could look upon it and be healed.<<

You forgot to read what happened to the image of a snake when the Israelites began to “venerate” it? Are you ready to smash those idols of Mary and the saints?

[SoothingDave]

Are you married? Do you or your spouse wear wedding rings? Can you show me where they are found in the Bible?

[Mrs. Don-o]

Actually, we do believe in Mary's perpetual virginity, but that's not what's specifically affirmed in the Nicene Creed. The Creed says Christ was "born of the Virgin Mary" --- which, if I'm not mistaken, all Christians believe.

As for your second point, I am not sure what you mean. Weren't the Apostles the founding preachers/teachers/church-planters, so to speak, of the Christian Church? Don't all Christians believe that? (I doubt the capitalization is a salient point. I'm not sure what words are capitalized in Greek, the original language of the Nicene Creed.)

(Please forgive me if my points aren't exactly apt. I did not go back and real all the discussion that went before, and now it's bedtime for me. I'm getting up early tomorrow.)

G'night, everybody, and God bless!

[Mrs. Don-o]

No, really, CB -- you think these are pictures of idolatry? You seriously think these people are adoring figurines, American flags, crossed sticks, and electric lights?

Metmom --- is that your view, too?

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

Yes, the Catholic Mass resembles the eternal heavenly worship. These scriptural descriptions of divine worship should not seem foreign to Protestants.

In the Mass, Christ, acting through the person of the priest, makes present the sacrifice of Calgary, offering Himself to the Father, under the appearance of bread and wine. In this moment, our earthly worship is united with the eternal heavenly worship.

It’s a beautiful teaching. And true.

I hope that you join us some day.