Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
Posted on 08/27/2013 11:53:37 AM PDT by NYer
Megachurch. Two young ladies. Both had left the Catholic Church. Both were now attending “megachurches.” We had a good chat together. I wanted to understand their reasons for why they left the Catholic Church for a megachurch.
Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
I was at the bank and somehow I got into a spiritual conversation with two Hispanic executives that worked there.
When I asked why they exchanged the Catholic Church for the megachurch, they gave me a number of reasons:
Although these two ladies didn’t articulate it explicitly to me, I could tell that they were very proud of their new churches. I could also discern in them a surprise that I am so “spiritual” and yet I am very excited about being Catholic. They assumed the “with it” people were leaving Catholicism for the bigger and better and deal.
I asked them what they miss about being Catholic. They replied with two answers:
I asked both about the Eucharist: “Don’t you miss the Eucharist?”
This question didn’t phase them one bit. “Oh we still have communion. They pass out little crackers and cups of juice. I like this better because I thought drinking from one big cup is icky. Spreads germs.”
“But in the Catholic Church,” I replied, “we believe that the Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus?”
I may as well have said, “Don’t you know that there are Martians in my back pocket.” She was unaware that the Catholic Church taught this. No idea.
This, my brothers and sisters, is the crux of the problem. These girls were raised as Catholics, but did not know about the Eucharist. They did not know that the Eucharist is God. They did not understand the Holy Eucharist is the center of the Catholic tradition.
So when they compare our ho-hum Catholic music and pedestrian sermons to snazzy well produced musical productions and highly polished bulleted sermons from handsome professional speakers…where are they going to go?
If they had believed that the Holy Eucharist is truly the Lord Jesus Christ, then they would have stayed. This is the task of the New Evangelization if there is going to be one. Can we communicate the mystery of Eucharist. If we fail in that, everyone is leaving the building.
Godspeed,
Taylor
PS: I don’t mean to suggest that having the Holy Eucharist is an excuse for bad music, bad vestments, bad architecture, and bad sermons. The Eucharist is like a precious diamond. It deserves a platinum setting…not a plastic setting. We can’t say, “Well, we have the Eucharist – so you’re forced to stay and have a miserable experience every Sunday.” We can’t keep the sacraments hostage to mediocracy.
PPS: With 1 billion strong, the Catholic Church is the real megachurch!
Pope Francis at Rio de Janeiro
3 million people
1383 The altar, around which the Church is gathered in the celebration of the Eucharist, represents the two aspects of the same mystery: the altar of the sacrifice and the table of the Lord. This is all the more so since the Christian altar is the symbol of Christ himself, present in the midst of the assembly of his faithful, both as the victim offered for our reconciliation and as food from heaven who is giving himself to us. "For what is the altar of Christ if not the image of the Body of Christ?" asks St. Ambrose. He says elsewhere, "The altar represents the body [of Christ] and the Body of Christ is on the altar." The liturgy expresses this unity of sacrifice and communion in many prayers. Thus the Roman Church prays in its anaphora:
We entreat you, almighty God,
that by the hands of your holy Angel
this offering may be borne to your altar in heaven
in the sight of your divine majesty,
so that as we receive in communion at this altar
the most holy Body and Blood of your Son
I have never yet seen anyone bow down before the Bible nor pray to it.
I am aware of what the Bible says, but thanks for the link anyway.
,,,I don’t know...you might’ve had a blow=out cruising down salvation rd...you better check your spare tire for safety. It’s the one that’s shaped like a wafer.
I recognize that this is a serious question.
With all due respect, the first thing to note is that the Internet provides only a funhouse-mirror distortion of Catholicism--- simply because it is a funhouse distortion of everything, making noses huge and chins tiny, elongating fingers and shrinking legs (you get the picture).
It's like comparing Mozart to Miley Cyrus in number of google searches. Yow. Can't use that as a criterion of what's significant and what's not.
For an undistorted view, it's better to look at how we actually pray, e.g. liturgical prayer. Just for starters, the Mass prayers (this is what we pray every day) and the Scripture readings from last Sunday's Mass (this runs through the Bible on a 3-year cycle of daily readings.)
Use your search function to make it quick-- Mary was not even mentioned in last Sunday's readings, and is mentioned zero times in an ordinary daily Mass.
You may have noticed that there are two places where she is mentioned --- and that, briefly --- in a Sunday Mass: in the Confiteor and the Nicene Creed. In the Confiteor, Mary, exactly like all of US, the "brothers and sisters," is asked to pray to God for us. Just --- as I said --- the same way we ask each other to pray to God.
In the Creed, we acknowledge that Christ was "born of the Virgin Mary."
That's it.
I hope you can see that this is a more proportionate view than what you may find at myriad internet site.
” The Vatican is full of people who are REALLY out of touch on this. You must speak to the people in the language that they understand. Christ did not arrive in Israel speaking Mandarin Chinese (although he could have).”
What you’re saying is complete nonsense. Once, you knew the meaning of exactly ZERO words. None at all. Every word you know you were taught by another person, a dictionary you used, or by the context in which it was used. The people in the Vatican are not out of touch with people. They are IN TOUCH with God and His teachings. They should do a better job of teaching, yes, but people in the pews have to do a MUCH BETTER JOB of growing up, stopping the whining and using a dictionary. I understand all of the words used in the Mass. Why? Because I’m literate and know how to use dictionaries. It’s just that simple. The problem is that those people with the “puzzled, quizzical looks” are poorly catechized - and even worse - too darn lazy to crack open a book. They have no more intelligence and self-initiative than they do real faith.
In 2011 I went to a training session on the new Roman Missal, There was an idiot there, a man who had the gall to be a catechist for children, who whined that he couldn’t find the word “consubstantial” in his dictionary at home and so he was upset that it was even being used. I had to retrain my disgust with this lazy piece of useless debris and point out it was in my dictionary. I explained what it meant. I then told him - very politely - to get a better dictionary. These people with the “puzzled, quizzical looks” are useless parasites. If they had any real faith they would have prepared for the new Missal, used a dictionary or simply asked their pastor. They did none of those things.
I find it incredibly ironic and hypocritical for Catholics to vilify non-Catholics for putting men up on a pedestal when they *venerate*, *honor*, pray to, bow down to, dead people THEY have exalted as something special.
They’re doing the very thing with dead people they condemn others for doing with living people.
Same for the manger scene. I see no kneeling bench or people praying in front of it. Surely you have the evidence of that correct? We would love to see the evidence.
“Glory to God”
“Honor to Mary”
Then how “orthodox” is the Rosary considered in Catholicism?
Mary is mentioned almost constantly in that recitation.
No apologies are needed for serious discussion, fwdude. I try to keep in mind Peter's wish that we be "ready always to give answer to every man that asks you the reason for the hope that is in you," ---and to do it with a good deal of patience and charity in the back-and-forth.
There's no reason we can't enrich each other's understanding to some extent. I always appreciate a mutually respectful sharing of our points of view. After all, that's BASIC --- Brothers And Sisters In Christ.
Exodus 20:4-6 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments..
Those people are bowing down to images.
Motivational speaker or the Word of God?
I'm glad that you realize that non-Catholics can be Brothers and Sisters in Christ with you, for that is not the official Catholic Doctrine, as expressed by numerous posters on this thread.
And THAT is the whole problem with Catholicism. It's never enough. There's always more and you're never sure you made the mark, so try harder.
When Jesus died on the cross, He said *It is FINISHED*, and the curtain of the Temple was torn in two.
Jesus told us, Matthew 11:28-30 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
Jesus didn't come to put us into bondage, He came to set us free.
A certain elasticity of definition, perhaps? Or different sets of criteria? Not uncommon when assessing faith affiliation.
Pew also says, that by the third generation in the US, the Catholic percentage of Mexicans drops down to 40%. Plus, after they come to the US, they have the fastest-rising divorce and abortion rates, and the fastest-falling birth rates, of any demographic group in the Western Hemisphere.
Note I didn't say "highest" and "lowest" --- I said "fastest-rising" and "fastest-falling", which has to do, not with levels, but with rates of change.
Incorrectly? Hmm! Let’s see.
Veneration
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/venerate
venerate
to regard or treat with reverence; revere.
Origin:>br> 1615–25; < Latin venerātus, past participle of venerārī to solicit the goodwill of (a god), worship, revere, verbal derivative of vener-
http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/venerate
venerate
to offer honor or respect to (someone) as a divine power Synonyms adore, deify, glorify, revere, reverence, venerate Yep, they venerate all right!
Actually only two mysteries are about Mary
Let’s take a look
Joyful Mysteries — Conception, birth and childhood of Jesus Christ
Luminous Mysteries — the Adult Ministry of Jesus Christ from his Baptism to the Last Supper
Sorrowful Mysteries — from the Agony in the Garden to the Crucifixion
Glorious Mysteries — first three — Resurrection, Ascension, Descent of the Holy Spirit, then the two about Mary
So you see the Rosary is really about Christ.
While we say it we meditate on these incidents in his life.
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