Joel Osteen and In-N-Out Are our hearts changed by something within us or by Someone outside us?

The Aquila Report ^ | July 22, 2013 | Marc5solas

[Gamecock]

If you’ve never had the pleasure of eating an In-N-Out Burger, you are missing out on one of the little, artery clogging,  pleasures of life.

As for the name, it’s about as basic and simple as you could get.  You come in, get your burger, and go out.  Fast, easy, and well.. tasty.

Inside of you is hunger, outside of you are tasty burgers for your enjoyment.  You go there, get one, and satisfy your hunger. There are no burgers inside of me, so I go out, where there are burgers.  Simple. Not exactly deep theology here.. right?

Can you imagine the absurdity and utter confusion of getting that basic premise wrong?

Would it be absurd? Would it be mocked?  You would think so, but I recently saw this obvious error applauded and treated as if it was the deepest, most philosophical, life-changing truth imaginable by no lesser names than media mogul Oprah Winfrey and “christian” Pastor Joel Osteen.

Before you think I unfairly listed Osteen as “christian” (in quotes), let’s watch his latest appearance on Oprah’s “Lifeclass.”

Did you catch the quote?

“You’ll never rise any higher than you see yourself.” – Joel Osteen

Hmm.  So, how high I rise (externally/out) is based upon me (internal/in) and how I see myself (internal/in).

So the answer to the external is from within.. how I view myself, and as he states later, what words I speak about myself.

You’ve got to see this … Joel Osteen’s view, his teaching in the role of “Pastor” is that the external is determined by the internal (You, your view, your mindset, and your words).

Sounds good, and boy, does it sell.  Oprah has built a multi-billion dollar media empire. Joel Osteen “Pastors” the largest church in the United States, it’s also helped sell books like “The Secret” and spin up careers of Oprah’s other Lifeclass speakers.  But what does scripture say?  Is THIS the message of Christianity, that the internal controls the external?  That it’s IN that controls OUT?

The written word of God, inspired by God the Holy Spirit is clear.. it’s not the SOLUTION that’s in us, it’s the PROBLEM!

(I’m going to intentionally quote a LOT of scripture this week. I want the sheer weight and volume of scripture which speaks to this core issue to blow you away.  While Joel Osteen doesn’t quote a single verse, here is a mere sampling of God’s word on the issue. Read them all now, or later, but they’re here for your reference.)

1. Men are born in sin:

• Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
• Genesis 8:21 - the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.”
• Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
  
• John 3:6 - “That which is born of the flesh is flesh”

2. As all men have sinned, they are slaves to sin:

• John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.”
• Titus 3:3 - For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
• Galatians 4:8-9 - Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
• Romans 6:6,16,17,19,20 - We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey…? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed… For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
• Romans 7:14 - For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

3. The heart of sin is UNABLE and UNWILLING to do good. It is, in fact, HOSTILE to God:

• John 3:20 - “For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.”
• Romans 8:7-8 - For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God
• Colossians 1:21 - And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds
• Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb;
• Ephesians 2:12-13 - remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
• Ephesians 2:3 - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
• Proverbs 15:9 - The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord
• Proverbs 15:8 - The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord (c.f. Proverbs 21:27)
• Proverbs 28:9 - If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination.
• Isaiah 64:6 - We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
• Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please [God]
• Romans 8:7-8 - Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
• Psalm 10:4 - In the pride of his face the wicked does not seek him; all his thoughts are, “There is no God.”
• John 3:20 - “For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.”
• Isaiah 65:1 - “I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me; I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me.
• Isaiah 64:7 - There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us, and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities.
• Romans 3:10-12 - “no one seeks for God.”

So, if we are born in sin, slaves to sin and hostile to God, unable to do good works… is the heart a good place to be looking?

Yes, for those in Christ, He has changed their heart of stone into a heart of flesh.  But.. where does that come from? IN or OUT?

Our righteousness? OUT! It is an external (or what some call “alien”) righteousness. Our only hope in life and death is the external/OUT righteousness of Christ!

“The first is alien righteousness, that is the righteousness of another, instilled from without.  This is the righteousness of Christ by which he justifies though faith, as it is written in I Cor. 1:30:  “whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.”  In John 11:25-26, Christ himself states:  “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me…..shall never die.”  Later he adds in John 14:6, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.”  This righteousness, then, is given to men in baptism and whenever they are truly repentant.  Therefore a man can with confidence boast in Christ and say:  “Mine are Christ’s living, doing, and speaking, his suffering and dying, mine as much as if I had lived, done, spoken, suffered, and died as he did.”  Just as a bridegroom possesses all that is his bride’s and she all that is his—for the two have all things in common because they are one flesh[Gen. 2:24]—so Christ and the church are one spirit [Eph. 5:29-32].  Thus the blessed God and Father of mercies has, according to Peter, granted to us very great and precious gifts in Christ [II Pet. 1:4].  Paul writes in II Cor. 1:3; “Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.”

- Martin Luther

So, do you see the completely backward message of Joel Osteen? Not only is it not biblical (Did you hear a single mention of Jesus, or a single passage of scripture in his dicussion?) it’s the polar OPPOSITE of biblical Christianity.  And he’s telling unregenerate sinners (who the bible says are slaves to sin and UNABLE to please God) that they are blessed and victorious?  That’s not just incorrect, it’s rank heresy. He’s speaking peace and victory to people who in their unregenerate state are destined for hell.  Smiley face and sweet voice or not.. that’s the cruelest act I can think of a man committing, and to do it while presenting himself as a “Pastor”?  God have mercy!

False teacher much?

So, the takeaway here is this:  Get the In-N-Out right, your only hope is OUT, through the external/alien righteousness of Jesus Christ through faith in Him for the forgiveness of sins.

[metmom]

What is it? Just to alert of the doings of the false teachers?

[Vigilanteman]

That's OK. They don't have to. They just have to preach the truth.

I totally agree. There are just far too few who do.

God bless those few and grow their numbers!

[Vigilanteman]

Unfortunately, JO is far from alone. He is also far from the worst. He also mixes some very nice motivational talk in with his heresies. Very effectively, I might add.

[Gamecock]

What is it? Just to alert of the doings of the false teachers?

Follows the mischief ongoings of the megachurch pastors.

[SoothingDave]

[Gamecock]

Founded in 2006 with the below linked thread, the YBPDLN Ping List has grown to several members. Often times months go by with no ping, buth then something, like Victoria Osteen being arrested, will occur and there will be a flurry of pings as more information becomes known.

Rick Warren called 'enabler and defender' of evil

Example of a Vicky Osteen thread: Osteen's Wife on Trial for Temper Tantrum

[Dutchboy88]

"I have an acquaintance who I do believe is sincere in her profession of faith in Christ, but went to one of these meetings and got *filled with the Spirit* and is still justifying blatant, unrepentant sin in her life. There are other things in her life which cause me to wonder if she’s merely been deceived and is not really saved."

I have had the same situatio with friends of mine. They claim these odd, un-biblical experiences and attribute them to the Holy Spirit. I believe, like you, that there is a strong possibility that in spite of "professions of faith", "altar calls", even "re-commitments to Christ", these folks may not have been adopted by God. Read that, He never knew them. Sounds harsh, and I don't pretend to be able to discern their state. Just saying...

[HiTech RedNeck]

By the way I do not mean to tout a “prosperity gospel” at least not in the way that has been made notorious by televangelists. God will make a believer prosperous spiritually if the believer asks for that, because the believer is asking according to God’s will. That MIGHT or MIGHT NOT entail certain quantities of earthly mammon. If one’s heart is to use whatever mammon one has to “make friends so that they may greet you in the heavenly places”... then if God sees that you will follow through, God might make you “stinking rich.” But the riches must never, ever be used as idols because God can humble that kind of pride right quick.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Sometimes what’s blatant is a matter of perspective. We know, to our humility if we are cognizant, that we won’t be rid of the presence of all our sin — the repentance won’t be finished — until we get to glory with Jesus.

Brethren may see the sin clearly but also be unable to muster the grace to set the erring person right in love. Such brethren should also try being a bit more humble to see if that will gain them better effectiveness. A jillion published articles about fits of anger might not do as much good as one loving brother or sister coming in private.

[dagogo redux]

It’s time for lunch!

[Dutchboy88]

I have absolutely no idea what you are getting at.

[metmom]

I agree. That’s the problem with trying to discern someone’s salvation based on outward *signs*.

The whole tongues thing is a perfect example. I’ve attended Pentecostal churches and have heard from the pulpit that tongues is a sign for believers that they heave been filled with the Holy Spirit, (baptism with evidence...) and yet Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 14 that tongues is a sign for unbelievers, not believers.

I have had my own experience which I am sure was the filling of thee Holy Spirit (I can FReepmail details if you have the time) and all I can say that if someone needs to have evidence that what they experienced was from God, nothing happened. You cannot be touched by God like that and NOT know it. I certainly don’t need a *sign* to validate it.

[metmom]

Brethren may see the sin clearly but also be unable to muster the grace to set the erring person right in love. Such brethren should also try being a bit more humble to see if that will gain them better effectiveness.

Part of the problem might not be pride as much as fear of rejection, fear of the reaction on the part of the person being confronted.

I know that for me that has beena factor in the past but by God's grace, I am learning to overcome that.

[Dutchboy88]

The "tongues" matter you mention represents a world view built upon a misunderstanding of Scripture. The tongues Paul speaks of (I Cor.) originated in Acts 2 and was simply a foreign language unknown to the speaker. The "miracle" was that remarks made were in shockingly perfect dialects known only to those from the more than 16 foreign areas mentioned by Luke. That is why a translator is necessary and why it is for unbelievers. Paul is simply exagerating when he says, "If I could speak in a tongue of angels..."

And, incidentally, I have heard of an example of tongues in the biblical manner described. A young girl in a gathering stood and spoke up in what most thought was babbling. She was asked to sit down. But, an older man stood with tears running down his face and begged them to allow her to continue. He said she was speaking to him in a Russian dialect known only in the small village he was from. He was visiting some friends in the US and she was telling him the Gospel of Jesus Christ in his native tongue. That afternoon a soul was adopted by God.

But, the glossalalia induced by repetitious chanting while praying, claiming to be driven by the Holy Spirit is one more of those practices which makes one question whether these really are believers or if they are just "experience junkies". Ask yourself if you ever saw Jesus get high this way or encourage others to do so. Their "tongues" is a manufactured error borne of bad theology and poor hermeneutics.

Your remarks are dead-on. You don't need a sign if you understand grace.

[Salvation]

I like that. This is one we can agree on.

[metmom]

“experience junkies”

I need to remember that for future use.

[Zuriel]

**Paul is simply exagerating when he says, “If I could speak in a tongue of angels...”**

If I may, here’s what may be your personal interpretation of 1Cor. 13:1:

“Though I speak with the tongues of men, OR IF I COULD SPEAK IN THE TONGUES of angels....”.

I prefer the actual wording in the KJV: “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels...”.

No comma after ‘men’.

Here’s Paul showing his approval of unknown tongues from God; given for the individual’s edification. “He that speaketh in an UNKNOWN”(I repeat, UNKNOWN) tongue speaketh NOT”(I repeat, NOT)”unto men, BUT unto GOD: for NO man understandeth him: HOWBEIT in the SPIRIT he SPEAKETH MYSTERIES.” 1Cor. 14:2

**And, incidentally, I have heard of an example of tongues in the biblical manner described.**

Glad you agree with that experience!

**But, the glossalalia induced by repetitious chanting while praying, claiming to be driven by the Holy Spirit is one more of those practices which makes one question whether these really are believers or if they are just “experience junkies”.**

The fakers are ‘tares’ (not that those souls can’t be corrected and converted). And just like ‘tares’, can be any number of weeds in the wheat field. Each species having it’s own identity, but managing to be amongst the wheat. Some are dreadfully obvious, like the ‘ragweed’ (big show, can’t miss them); some, not quite so obvious, like ‘barnyard grass’ and ‘foxtail’ (unpretentious, yet not belonging there). God sez he’ll sort them all out at harvest.

[Dutchboy88]

You may wish to take a course in Greek and hermeneutics.

[Zuriel]

**Your remarks are dead-on. You don’t need a sign if you understand grace.**

It’s life, to reach ‘milestones’, ‘watershed moments’, life changing experiences. People will find something, and stop, find something, and stop....over and over. And maybe at each stop, thinking...”I found what I’ve been looking for, I felt something like never before, and this is it. There’s no more greater experience to be found”. ....Until the hunger for something more takes hold. And the search continues.

A common passage used to refute the teaching of tongues for every newborn: 1Co 12:29-30 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?.

First and foremost:
ANY scriptures taken from the epistles are to be read with this understanding: The epistles were written to the churches; the saints, whether they be pastors, elders, or other born again members. Most of the introductions point this out, with the most common being, “to the saints..”. Those people had already been born again. There are a few passages alluding to that experience, but not mentioned regularly since they had already ‘been there’.

The Lord prophesied of the baptism of the Holy Ghost:

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou HEAREST the SOUND thereof, but canst NOT tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: SO is EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit.

“He that believeth in me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:38,39

Detailed accounts of the Spirit poured out:
Acts 2:4 The Jews: “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

Acts 8:17 the Samaritans (part Jew, part Gentile): “Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.” A scene apparently so startling that Simon the sorceror (no small time magician) wanted to buy that power, so that he too could to pass on to others the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:44-46 the Gentiles: While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were ASTONISHED.....FOR they HEARD them speak with tongues, and magnify God.”

Acts 19:6: “And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them, and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”

A SIGN/EXPERIENCE.....WHAT IS SCRIPTURAL? CONSIDER PETER’S LIFE IN THE GOSPELS:

(written in autobiographical fashion)

“My life was forever changed; it was my new beginning.....”

..when I saw the Lord turn WATER into WINE!

..when I saw the Lord clease the lepers RIGHT before my EYES!

..when the Lord was walking on the water and called me to him..AND..I..WALKED ON WATER!!

..when I saw the Lord call for a dead man to come forth....and the dead man CAME to LIFE!

..when I SAW the Lord TRANSFIGURED on the mount,..HE GLOWED!

..when I saw the events of the crucifixion, and my denials of the Lord, my heart was SO convicted!

..when I saw the resurrected Christ walk right through a WALL, into a room where I was present!

..when I watched him ASCEND up into heaven!

BUT NO!...HERE.....is Peter’s testimony of the BEGINNING of his new life in Christ; his account to the brethern in Jerusalem after the conversion of the household of Cornelius: “..the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us AT THE BEGINNING.” 11:17 (caps to remind that the beginning of the church is that initial outpouring).

As for myself, I had heart tugging experiences that drew me nearer to the Lord ( the loss of my older brother, to a farm accident, when I was 10. Being drawn deeply to repentance different times. Attending a ‘crusade’, and making a confession of faith, etc.). BUT...the biblical conversion was just not taught at my Calvinist assembly, so I didn’t even known what it really was.

Peter put the death, burial, and resurrection in Christ (for the sinner) in one verse: Acts 2:38.

[metmom]

Here’s Paul showing his approval of unknown tongues from God; given for the individual’s edification.

The gifts are NOT for the edification of the individual. They are for the edification of the church.

Read 1 Corinthians 14 for proper exercising of the gifts.