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Joni Eareckson Tada on Wilberforce Award, 'Better Off Dead Than Disabled' Mentality
Christian Post ^ | 03/16/2012 | Eryn Sun

Posted on 03/16/2012 9:24:09 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

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To: cva66snipe

I just wanted to say thank you for testifying in such a beautiful and moving manner.

“It’s going to be OK.” Not, “It’s all going to be perfection.” There is no such thing as perfection, other than God.

Something that took me a long time to learn is that I am not owed anything by God. My worship is freely given, not some bargaining tool to make life easier or more healthy.

Sure, I have seen the odd miracle, whether of healing or other. Benefitted from one myself, in fact. Most people have at least witnessed a miracle, if they are willing to be honest with themselves.


61 posted on 03/18/2012 9:55:43 AM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: SeekAndFind
Pinged from Terri Dailies


62 posted on 03/18/2012 10:31:19 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: CynicalBear
Two questions. Why didn’t people like Joni get healed when they went with faith that they would? Why are not all Christians without illness or disabilities?

Why aren't all people automatically saved? Why do Christians continue to sin? You are seeking perfection in men that far too often are not walking by complete obedience and faith in Jesus. Even in Christian churches, I hear sermons that discourage faith. But that does not mean that healing was not provided by the sacrifice of Jesus. It was a complete sacrifice that provides for every need. And every promise is received by faith.

All the Children of Israel were given the Promised Land, but only 2 received that Promise. When you really see that startling truth, its a wake up call. What hindered their entrance - unbelief, fear, among other negative words. The two that entered, Joshua and Caleb, were the ones that believed God. Caleb was 85 and healthy enough to drive out giants when he finally received the Promise. (Joshua 14) We see a pattern in the OT, faith brings victory or God's Blessing, and sin (all types including unbelief and fear) opens the door to calamity, or the curse. NT Believers have been redeemed from the curse. This is a promise received by faith.

You are asking me to play God and look into someone's heart. Is there strife, unforgiveness, bitterness or some other hindrance? Are they ready to be with Jesus and giving up on life? Have they authorized satan to attack their lives like Job did? No human can answer that question for another. But we can study God's Word and let the Holy Spirit guide us into Truth, at the very least for ourselves.

Its a dangerous road, and a deception of the enemy, to base your faith, or what God may or might not do, on what has happened to Brother Earl or Sister Wanda. We don't know the full story. We only see and hear what they want us to see and hear. We don't know them 24/7/365. We don't hear them when they are alone. We don't see what is in their heart. PLEASE NOTE: This does not mean that Brother Earl who suffered for 45 years was a sinner. Please don't make that ridiculous assumption. Leave that to God. He is the only one worthy to judge someone's heart. We need to stay with the Word constantly to keep our faith strong and pay attention to the Holy Spirit's guidance so we can receive our Promised Land.

Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life. Proverbs 4:23 NIV

63 posted on 03/18/2012 11:39:26 AM PDT by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: Kandy Atz; CynicalBear

Why don’t you just answer the questions instead of dancing around them?

We aren’t interested in your long rambling blame shifting accusations of other believers.

Salvation when we call out on God is the ONLY thing that is guaranteed by God.

And yes, healing is provided for in the atonement by His stripes - the method by which the healing comes and nobody ever said otherwise, so you can stop accusing people of saying something they didn’t, but healing is not a guarantee IN THIS LIFE. It’s merely an sidestream benefit if it glorifies God to do so.


64 posted on 03/18/2012 12:11:47 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Kandy Atz; CynicalBear
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Hebrews 11:32-40 32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy— wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

I guess those who were martyred just didn't have enough faith, did they? What does the name it and claim it group do with that?

We are so spoiled in this country that we have NO IDEA what persecution really is. While so many charismatics are whining about the state of their bodies, and their manifestations of signs and wonders, people are DYING for their faith in Christ. What do you do with those whom God allows to be martyred if sickness throws you for such a loop? What? Is God a child abuser as you've accused us in the past of believing?

Our God does what is best for us in love. He does not perform for me what I think is best for me because I demand it like a petulant two year old.

65 posted on 03/18/2012 12:20:56 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: boatbums
I have covered both Job and Paul's thorn in the flesh extensively on threads like this before. A careful reading of either one with an understanding of the nature of God and the rest of scripture will reveal the Truth.

If you think Paul's thorn is any type of illness, you need to read it again. Paul tells you in the same verse EXACTLY what it was, a messenger of satan. Paul was attacked by demonic persecution that dogged his ministry. God's grace was more than enough to remove it at the appropriate time.

To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 2 Corinthians 12:7 NIV (emphasis added)

Satan was determined, as he still is, to stop the spread of the surpassingly great revelations of the New Birth. That we are redeemed from the curse, spiritually reborn, the Body of Christ, children of God and more than conquerors. Satan doesn't mind if a few people get saved and just attend church on Sunday - that's not much of a threat to him. But he can't have thousands of "imitators of Christ" attacking his work all over the world. Imagine how large the Church would grow and quickly the Gospel would spread if ALL Christians were operating under a Christ-like anointing with all the spiritual gifts working - healing the sick, casting out devils, feeding the hungry miraculously, preaching the Good News to the poor. Satan's kingdom would melt like an ice cube on a Texas sidewalk in Summer.

I cited key verses in Job that show exactly what transpired. Note that God placed a hedge around Job. That was Satan's complaint to God. Satan attempted to provoke God to remove the hedge, but God did NOT remove it. He told satan behold, or look, he is in your hands because something else had removed the hedge. But he refrained the destroyer from touching Job's life.

At the end we are told Job was captive. By whom, if God "turned the captivity of Job" and "restored twice what he had before." Job's own fear was the culprit - "what I GREATLY feared came upon me." He was not only afraid, he was HIGHLY developed in it. Fear is the polar opposite of faith. I posted Ecclesiastes 10:8 as another clue that provides insight - I love how the Bible just keeps helping you along.

He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him. Ecclesiastes 10:8 KJV -- Who broke the hedge and who is the serpent? This is a spiritual truth that provides much understanding throughout the Bible.

I encourage you to read Job, especially 1, 2, 6 and 42 carefully as if you have never read it before, without any bias. Maybe in two or three translations if that helps for a fresh perspective. That is what I did when the light finally went off removing religious tradition that had blinded and bound me for so very long. It also helped that I started seeing God as a GOOD GOD - my Heavenly Father that is Love and does not change.

The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple. Psalm 119:130 KJV

If I have seemed abrasive on any of these threads, please forgive me. I have been writing quickly and passionately about a subject that is near to my heart. My free time is quite limited and there is so much I want to share. I love God's Word and treasure it more and more every day. When I have time, I just start writing and things keep coming to my spirit to include. I truly hope someone is edified by these discussions

66 posted on 03/18/2012 12:41:02 PM PDT by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: Kandy Atz; metmom
Nice kabuki dance. There is so much you don’t take into account. Your simplistic view strikes me as someone who is very young either in chronological age or spiritually. Let me give you an example.

A few days ago you asked this series of questions.

>>Before looking at scriptures, consider an earthly parent. Would ANY earthly parent give their child cancer or throw them in front of a bus to teach them patience? Would any earthly parent sit by and watch their child suffer if they had the means to stop the pain just so they could endure some perverted form of discipline?<<

Now, what you didn’t include in that scenario was the question “compared to what”. I don’t know if you are a parent or not but as a parent of three grown children I can assure you that there are contingencies to your questions. What would be the end result if the parent didn’t “allow the child to get cancer” or “throw them in front of the bus”? Would they have gone on to become so depraved that their future would be hell as opposed to heaven if they had been kept from what they would have done were they to remain healthy? Perhaps by allowing a minor injury the parent helps the child to avoid more devastating injury in the future. Most parents have allowed the child to touch a hot surface to be taught to not get burned more seriously in the future. You forgot to include in your thought process the fact that God may allow illness or accident knowing that if that didn’t happen something much more serious would have happened in the future. Perhaps if He did heal all illness people would become so self centered they would reject salvation.

You said it was accusing God “child abuse” if someone suggested He allowed children to get ill. It’s time you trust that God may indeed allow illness or injury to keep that “child” from an eternity in hell.

Which would you do? Allow injury or illness knowing that if you didn’t the “child” would end up in hell? Or would you allow what you called “child abuse” to keep that “child” from hell?

67 posted on 03/18/2012 2:54:01 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear; Kandy Atz; boatbums; caww; smvoice; reaganaut
KA:>>Before looking at scriptures, consider an earthly parent. Would ANY earthly parent give their child cancer or throw them in front of a bus to teach them patience? Would any earthly parent sit by and watch their child suffer if they had the means to stop the pain just so they could endure some perverted form of discipline?<<

And still no response to the question of whether the allegation of child abuse can be made toward God in regard to Him allowing His followers to be martyred.

What does someone who thinks that God allowing illness in a person's life do with those verses in Hebrews?

Hebrews 11:35-40 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy— wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

What about the stoning of Stephen? What about the persecution of the early church in the book of Acts? What about Paul's trials and afflictions?

2 Corinthians 11:21-28 But whatever anyone else dares to boast of—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast of that. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I.

23 Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one—I am talking like a madman—with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. 24 Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; 26 on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; 27 in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. 28 And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches.

By this twisted reasoning that illness is child abuse, what do those holding it do with what God allows some of His most faithful followers to endure?

And even if you can convince someone that it's not God's will for any to be sick, you STILL have yet to provide an answer for WHY people are not healed, and we have noticed that.

You aren't throwing dust in our eyes with your verbose responses.

68 posted on 03/18/2012 4:12:00 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear; Kandy Atz; boatbums; caww; smvoice; reaganaut
Nice kabuki dance. There is so much you don’t take into account. Your simplistic view strikes me as someone who is very young either in chronological age or spiritually.

It also strikes me as someone who has never had the joy and delight of having God work in their lives through afflictions, illness included, and does not realize privilege that knowing, and I mean, really realizing, having it become reality to you, God as provider and sustainer.

That person will never have the privilege of being able to say, I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me, when I am weak, then I am strong, His strength is made perfect in my weakness, never had the privilege of being able to minster to someone else going through trials and being able to come alongside them and comfort them with the comfort we have received from God and to bring encouragement and hope to them.

If I had not been afflicted with this food intolerance, I would not have reached the end of myself and pursued God so diligently and finally realized the filling of His Holy Spirit. What He has done in me in the inner being is worth every minute of physical affliction that got me there.

Pity the person whose life is so shallow that they never get to know God like that.

69 posted on 03/18/2012 4:21:16 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom; Kandy Atz; boatbums; caww; smvoice; reaganaut
I have always figured that God knows the future better than we do. Did He know that when some missed their bus or were late to work on 9/11 that they would not die that day? Of course. Did those same people who thought they were inconvenienced complain when they missed their bus or were late to work? Probably. God’s will be done!!

How often are those supposed “faith healers” who say you should be healed going against God’s protection like with those people who missed their bus or were late to work for some reason? Does God know that by having a certain infirmity like your eating or my polio He is protecting us from a greater danger or allowing us to serve Him in some special way? Of course He does. Do those “faith healers” ever say “God’s will be done” in a way that would let that person stay sick or infirmed? Not that I’ve heard.

70 posted on 03/18/2012 5:35:47 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear; Kandy Atz

No good parent in their right mind would EVER give their child everything they asked for immediately on demand.

And the argument that we’d never make our child sick is nonsense.

Matter of fact, you know, I did expose my kids deliberately to chicken pox. The vaccine had just come out and I WILL NOT vaccinate with a new vaccine, and I also know that chicken pox for a child is a nuisance illness but horrible for adults. Better for them to get it while their children.

In the past, parents would also deliberately expose their children to measles and other childhood illnesses to get them over with.

And these days, parents take their children in for vaccines, which hurt, and the children do not understand why they have to get them because they do hurt and you don’t feel well after them. But they can protect you from serious illness and even death.

What child abusers, eh?


71 posted on 03/18/2012 5:55:37 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom; CynicalBear; caww; smvoice; Lulu
If I had not been afflicted with this food intolerance, I would not have reached the end of myself and pursued God so diligently and finally realized the filling of His Holy Spirit. What He has done in me in the inner being is worth every minute of physical affliction that got me there.

I hope you realize just how astounding what you said is. Some claim that anyone who has "affliction" in their life has let Satan in the back door through their own doubts, fears and unbelief. They also, wrongly, state that ANY affliction in a Christian's life is a signal that something is wrong or off kilter and it is that Christian's job to figure out where they have opened themselves up to that attack and work to close it off so that God can be free to bless them with every good thing. The truth, however, is much more realistic as well as being what the Word of God actually states.

What greater glory is there to God than a life that loves Him freely, that serves Him joyfully, that obeys Him unquestionably and that trusts Him without doubt? Just as you said, someone who never knows suffering never experiences God's comfort. There was a song I used to sing when I sang solos at church and it was called, "Little Flowers". It speaks about flowers never worrying about rain or wind or storms because they "know" without the rain they would never grow. Like those flowers, we also need the storms because without them we would never grow, our faith would not ever get stronger. So, we should welcome whatever God brings into our lives when we are fully surrendered to Him because we can know for sure that He only allows what he knows we can both bear and grow stronger through. The twenty-third Psalm gets quoted a lot, but I wonder if some skip past the line that says, "Tho I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, thou art with me." God doesn't remove the valley but walks through it with us.

What greater defeat will the devil have to face than one who, through the valley of the shadow of death, STILL trusts in the Savior? And you are so right, people who expect a bed of roses as their "birthright" never come to know that God and Savior.

72 posted on 03/18/2012 8:51:28 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums; CynicalBear; caww; smvoice; reaganaut
Some claim that anyone who has "affliction" in their life has let Satan in the back door through their own doubts, fears and unbelief. They also, wrongly, state that ANY affliction in a Christian's life is a signal that something is wrong or off kilter and it is that Christian's job to figure out where they have opened themselves up to that attack and work to close it off so that God can be free to bless them with every good thing. The truth, however, is much more realistic as well as being what the Word of God actually states.

And again, it gets back to who's getting all the attention. Is the focus on me trying to figure out if I have enough faith, the right kind, sin in my life, generational curses, strongholds?

Is it my circumstances? What I'm eating? Maybe organic? Pro-biotics? Maybe I'm toxic and need to detox? Maybe it's pesticides or jet trails.

Or worse yet, focusing on Satan, is he attacking? How? Does he have a stronghold? Am I being oppressed or possessed?

People frantically focusing on finding the *problem* of why they're not being healed so THEY can fix it and get the healing.

And the whole time, guess Who is NOT getting the attention?

The twenty-third Psalm gets quoted a lot, but I wonder if some skip past the line that says, "Tho I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, thou art with me." God doesn't remove the valley but walks through it with us.

What I find interesting about that Psalm is that right before the valley of the shadow of death, the verse before says, *He guides me in paths of righteousness for His name's sake. Though He lead me through the valley of the shadow of death...* almost like the paths of righteousness that He's leading us in TO US *seem* like the valley of the shadow of death to us.

What greater defeat will the devil have to face than one who, through the valley of the shadow of death, STILL trusts in the Savior? And you are so right, people who expect a bed of roses as their "birthright" never come to know that God and Savior.

A pastor I heard preach once talked about divine healing and this concept of having enough faith. The illustration he used was two women who go up for prayer for healing from cancer. The first woman gets healed. The second woman doesn't.

So who has the greater faith? The first woman who got healed? Or the second woman who didn't get healed and yet is still faithfully loving, serving, and following Jesus even though she didn't get what she wanted and maybe even dies from the cancer?

People can figure that being sick is allowing satan the victory, BUT even if that were the case, he's only won a battle, not the war.

I have learned to recognize his lies and reject them and that has only come through experience.

God is in it and God is good. God's goodness is because of who He is, not a matter of my opinion of how He is working or how I think He should be working in my life.

73 posted on 03/18/2012 9:27:06 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Kandy Atz; metmom; smvoice; CynicalBear; caww
If you think Paul's thorn is any type of illness, you need to read it again. Paul tells you in the same verse EXACTLY what it was, a messenger of satan. Paul was attacked by demonic persecution that dogged his ministry. God's grace was more than enough to remove it at the appropriate time. To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 2 Corinthians 12:7 NIV (emphasis added) Satan was determined, as he still is, to stop the spread of the surpassingly great revelations of the New Birth. That we are redeemed from the curse, spiritually reborn, the Body of Christ, children of God and more than conquerors. Satan doesn't mind if a few people get saved and just attend church on Sunday - that's not much of a threat to him. But he can't have thousands of "imitators of Christ" attacking his work all over the world. Imagine how large the Church would grow and quickly the Gospel would spread if ALL Christians were operating under a Christ-like anointing with all the spiritual gifts working - healing the sick, casting out devils, feeding the hungry miraculously, preaching the Good News to the poor. Satan's kingdom would melt like an ice cube on a Texas sidewalk in Summer.

Regardless of whether or not you "covered" Job and Paul's afflictions, you are still giving your own understanding of what and why about those afflictions and if I do not accept that explanation it doesn't mean I have not also carefully read ALL of Scripture. I just do not agree with you, but I would never say you are calling God a liar just because of that. I can discuss why I differ and not be "abrasive" about it or take offense.

WRT Paul's thorn in the flesh, I do not agree that Paul's tormentor was attacks by demonic personages. Though Paul had his share of persecution and troubles because of the cause of the Gospel, there were others who experienced more if not worse than he. Rather than presume that Paul "didn't do it right" in how he dealt with this "thorn", why not see not only what this was but why God allowed it in Paul's life at all?

From http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/thorn.cfm, I think this is a well reasoned explanation:

    After Paul had explained his visions and revelations to the Corinthians (2 Cor 12:1-6), he tells them about the thorn in the flesh that was given to him. The apparent purpose of this thorn was beneficiary. Its intent was to keep Paul from conceit on account of his visions and revelations which otherwise may have given him a reason to boast.

    There have been many theories as to what exactly this thorn was—so many theories in fact, that it is impossible to diagnose Paul's situation with complete assurance. Some have suggested that Paul's thorn came in the form of Jewish persecution because of the surrounding context speaking of opponents. Even in Numbers 33:55 thorns are used as a metaphor for the enemies of the Israelites. Others have suggested that Paul's own remembrance of his past was his thorn; Paul's past included the persecution of the church (Acts 8:1-3; Gal 1:13; Phil 3:6) which may have continually haunted him and kept him humble. Some even propose that Paul dealt with either carnal temptation or depression.

    A physical ailment, however, seems more likely here, though the lack of details forbid a proper diagnosis. Physical infirmities that seem to fit the situation are malaria, Malta fever, epilepsy, convulsive attacks, and chronic ophthalmia.

    Many of these physical disabilities also affect the eyesight and it seems probable that even Paul himself experienced difficulty with his vision—this could very well be caused by his thorn in the flesh. Paul took advantage of various amanuenses to do the actual writing of at least some of his epistles. A mentioned amanuensis of Paul is Tertius who wrote down the book of Romans and added his own greeting to the church in Rome (Rom 16:22). Other times we see Paul adding a salutation with his own hands (1 Cor 16:21; 2 Thess 3:17) as opposed to physically writing the entire epistles. Paul even wrote in large print as noted in Gal 6:11. Other evidences of poor vision can be found earlier in the epistle to the Galatians. Paul says that because of physical infirmity he preached the gospel to the Galatians at the first (Gal 4:13). Some have speculated that the physical infirmity was a disease which affected his eyesight and the higher altitude in Galatia would have been better for him, especially if the disease was malaria. And only two verses later Paul states that the Galatian church would have plucked out their own eyes and given them to him if it were possible (Gal 4:15). Another example of Paul's poor eyesight is found in Acts 23:3-5. Paul was in the Sanhedrin at this point and referred to the high priest as a "white-washed wall" and those who stood by him asked why he was insulting the high priest. Paul responded by telling them that he did not realize that the man was the high priest. Though Paul, previously being a Pharisee, would have been able to recognize the high priest quite easily. Yet at this point he seemed unable to identify the high priest, even though the high priest would have stood out because he wore special garments and accessories. For a former Pharisee to have not recognized him is likely explained through understanding that Paul was not able to see him properly—giving weight to theories of trouble with his vision.

    Paul's thorn came by way of a messenger of Satan in order to torment him. Yet at the same time it was given to him in order that he would not become conceited. The present paradox can be compared to that of the story of Job. Satan was permitted to afflict God's servant, yet only within the parameters set by God (Job 2). Paul also wrote about handing an immoral brother to Satan so that his flesh may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord (1 Cor 5:5). Satan is used at times as an instrument to bolster the faith or prove the righteousness of believers.

    The ambiguity of the thorn in the flesh is actually a positive thing. If Paul would have specifically stated the identity of his thorn, believers from following generations may have discarded his experience if they were not afflicted with the same affliction. However, Christians from many generations have benefited by his reference to the thorn while applying it to their specific problems (Murray J. Harris. The Expositors Bible Commentary: 2 Corinthians. Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1976. p. 396). The thorn of which Paul speaks gives us an understanding of God's perspective concerning physical infirmities. Sometimes God uses illnesses for his purposes. Paul experienced many sufferings outside of his thorn (2 Cor 11:22-28), yet God used him mightily for the furtherance and advancement of His Gospel. The existence of illness or suffering in a believer's life does not necessarily constitute a sinful life or a life that lacks faith. Paul pleaded with the Lord on three separate occasions for the Lord to remove the thorn, yet God's grace was enough for the apostle and His power is made perfect in Paul's weaknesses.


74 posted on 03/18/2012 9:39:32 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
Paul was afflicted several times in his life after his conversion. One affliction though not described seemed to be serious. Perhaps he had life long vision issues from his initial vision?

Galatians 4 You did not mistreat me when I first preached to you. 13Surely you remember that I was sick when I first brought you the Good News of Christ. 14But even though my sickness was revolting to you, you did not reject me and turn me away. No, you took me in and cared for me as though I were an angel from God or even Christ Jesus himself. 15Where is that joyful spirit we felt together then? In those days, I know you would gladly have taken out your own eyes and given them to me if it had been possible.

Then we see where Paul tells Timothy to take some wine for his stomach. IOW the Apostles and ones working with them seem to suffer the same day too day afflictions as anyone else. I believe Paul was partially blind myself. Paul was an educated man more so than many others of the day likely were. There is a passage in one of his letters where he seems to have difficulty writing. Not the fact he doesn't know how but that it was difficult to do so.

Galatians 6 11Notice what large letters I use as I write these closing words in my own handwriting.

I believe that was the Thorn in the flesh he asked to be healed of three times and kept him humbled as he put it. Some may not understand I suppose that it kept him focused on GOD will make your weakness His strength too His glory and purpose.

Back to Joni. Joni's afflictions have given her a great insight to help reach millions who suffer spinal injuries and disorders. When my wife went into rehab the activities director gave her a copy of Joni's book. He knows Joni as when she is in our city he is her driver while she is here. I do not think her ministry would have happened nor had the impact is does if she still had the ministry without suffering the affliction she has.

Some may say it is so cruel of GOD then to allow her to remain in a wheelchair for all her life? They look through secular not spiritual reasoning. Our lives on this earth are short they are a preparation of good things too follow too those who believe and receive salvation.

We have the obvious freewill to choose or reject. GOD and The Holy Spirit use many persons too The Glory Of GOD so many may be saved.

I have been around persons confined to wheelchairs most of my life. I was in a rehab school for two years for eye/muscle coordination problems. That was my first exposure. the second one hit closer to home when my cousin had two kids born with disorders that would leave both kids in wheelchairs all their lives. WHY? For the answer we must look at not how we see things but att how GOD does. The two kids melted the heart of their war hardened grandfather. Nothing else would reach the man but those two kids. It took time but through them, through watching their determination and their attitude he came too the point where before he had major surgery a retired Chaplain had him bawling like a baby surrendering his soul to Christ. That is the big picture and not our sufferings. Yes the two even as grown adults have never walked but they have touched untold lives.

Next of course came my wife's afflictions. This came at the time her life was fixing to change for the better in many ways. She was an abandoned and abused most of her life woman raising two kids alone. Two persons had abused her one was her dad the other her husband who had left her.

She had learned too trust me and we had began making plans for our future together. Her life looked like things were really starting to get a lot better. Then in one afternoon her life as she knew it was gone. A deep uncertainty set in. What she had been praying for was not happening. She was praying for someone who would accept her for who she was and love her for the same. She had found it them Wham.

GOD's plan was in action. She did indeed find the person she sought. Her quadriplegia I was able to accept. I had learned in my days at the school too look beyond the disability and look at the person. The rest is history :>}

My wife has often asked me so what is her purpose in life? She doesn't realize the lives she touches. She loves the LORD with all her heart. She is helping other afflicted with various issues including depression like hers learn to cope and be at peace with their problems. Her witnessing began in rehab. My wife when this hit her was a Nurses Aid. Her work was her love. She loved the elderly and afflicted and doing for them. She even as a patient in rehab used her skills to talk stroke patients into eating and even showed them how to as she put it cheat to do so. GOD has His reasons and His will. Our submission to it allows many blessings for all.

75 posted on 03/18/2012 10:01:38 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: CynicalBear

Tada has been healed.

Listen to her. She’s just fine.


76 posted on 03/18/2012 11:28:31 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Pray Continued Victory for our Troops Still in Afghan!)
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To: Kandy Atz; metmom

Great post, as usual.

In order to make some seek for themselves and see it for themselves, I suggested they are making an assumption in believing Paul’s thorn in his flesh was an illness.

Instead I received a harsh reply stating that it said FLESH!! They continued in their assumption and never searched it out. You can’t tell some anything. So now that you pointed it out to them, maybe some will say ‘thank you’ to you.

Your posts have been right on!! And you got harsh condemning replies in return. If you don’t believe as they do, then comes the insults - from we aren’t dividing the word properly to we are being like Job’s friends in condemning them. And that’s the results of posting TRUTH while they lean unto their own understanding.

THANK YOU!! God’s Word is true and every man a liar!


77 posted on 03/19/2012 6:01:43 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: boatbums
It is believing that not one thing can happen that God did not permit for HIS plan, HIS purpose, HIS will.

Gods wants ALL to be saved - that is His plan/purpose/will - He died for ALL.

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants ALL men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth".

"The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting ANYONE TO PERISH, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

"For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and MANY enter through it". "But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a FEW FIND IT."

Now do you think 'man' is responsible for not attaining what God wants/wills?

78 posted on 03/19/2012 6:14:45 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: boatbums
Satan is used at times as an instrument to bolster the faith or prove the righteousness of believers.

God's Way is through HIS WORD.

"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ". Romans 10:17

79 posted on 03/19/2012 6:33:26 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: metmom; boatbums; caww; CynicalBear; presently no screen name; Kandy Atz
Maybe it would be helpful to those who insist that physical healing is God's promise to us today, and that lack of that healing is because of the believer's "own doubts, fears and unbelief", to understand Scripturally the reason for physical healing.

Jesus Christ healed. Peter healed. Paul healed. Those in the little flock were healed. New believers were healed. All before Acts 28, and the setting aside of Israel. One more time, including those believers at Corinth.

The question is: WHY were they healed? And why, after Israel was blinded, set aside, and became 'Lo Ammi" (not my people), were they NOT healed? The proof we have that those that were healed BEFORE Acts 28 lost that healing was that they are just as dead today as those who were NOT healed after Acts 28.

There is a reason for physical healing. It is the Millenial Kingdom. Those going into the kingdom will live for 1000 years. THEY WILL BE HEALED. THEIR BODIES WILL NOT DIE. So, why, did Christ, Peter, Paul heal the Jews before Acts 28? Why were those believers healed? BECAUSE UNTIL ISRAEL WAS FINALLY SET ASIDE, THE KINGDOM OFFER WAS STILL VALID FOR THEM. The SPIRITUAL AND PHYSICAL HEALING was part of that Kingdom promise and offer to them. And it will be AGAIN, after the BOdy of Christ is raptured, and GOd once again deals with Israel as a Nation. The tribulation. There WILL be PHYSICAL HEALING once again, as those tribulation saints endure to the end and go into the Kingdom upon Christ's return.

Physical healing has to do with THE PHYSICAL part of man. We are told during this age that the OUTWARD man perishes, though our INNER man is renewed day by day. To put no confidence in the OUTER MAN. We know that Christ is going to change our VILE BODIES like unto His glorious body when He comes for the Body of CHrist, but we are NOT going as physical people into the Millenial Kingdom. Israel is, however. Living, flesh, marrying and having children, all things that PHYSICAL MAN does, for 1000 years. Of COURSE, PHYSICAL HEALING will be necessary.

Israel was offered physical healing at the first coming of Christ, many were healed, they were offered physical healing after the Ascension of Christ, through the Disciples, many were healed, and they will be offered physical healing again, during the tribulation and Millenial Reign of Christ.

And ONCE AGAIN, I am NOT saying GOd does not heal today. He certainly does. For HIS purposes. It has nothing to do with any promise He made us, or covenant He made with Gentiles. Because He most certainly never made such a promise to us as He did to Israel. We have something much greater. We have all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. And we are promised by Him to be kept from His wrath. But we are NOT promised by Him to be physically healed. Unless we are Israel, we are in the middle of the tribulation, and are about to enter into the Millenial Kingdom, to be a Kingdom of priests and a blessing to all nations for 1000 years.

80 posted on 03/19/2012 8:32:47 AM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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