Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
In Christ Alone lyrics
Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;
In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save
?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live
There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ
That Mary remained virgin all her life is a historical fallacy made up by the Church.
It can NEVER be proved. Only presumed.
The Bible says the improtant thing: that Jesus was born of a virgin. The rest is no longer matter for the Gospel, but for the lives of saints. The Bible does not tell us a whole lot about any of the Apostles and Jesus's family. We don't know when Joseph died; how St. Paul's final journey to Rome ended (he was beheaded), how St Peter died (crucified upside down), how Our Lady died and when (no tomb ever existed). This was all the historical knowledge fo the Church that the Church in her wisdom decided not to put in the Bible.
The Apostles never intended to make the Gospels an encyclopedia of Christianity. It is clear from the manner in which they are written. St. Luke, for example (the physician who evidently interviewed our Lady for his gospel) says that he decided "to write to thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mayest know the verity of those words in which thou hast been instructed" (Lk 1). Note the purpose: not to instruct, but to provide a witness to the instruction. The Church instructs. The Evangelist says "Yes. I was there". The Scripture is there to confirm the body of knowledge already present in the Church. It is not that body in itself.
How do you KNOW for sure that Mary was always a virgin anyway?
This is a knowledge that the Church retained from testimonies of people who attended to Our Lady. It is possible that she allowed herself to be examined, because naturally it was a major contention at the time: Was Jesus or was He not, born miraculously?
The scriptures were written by the Holy Spirit, through the men selected by God for the honor. The NT scriptures existed before the Roman church. Rome wants to say that the church preceded the bible, that the authority of the scriptures come from the infallible church, therefore the church is equal to the scriptures..
Sorry that does not wash
The problem is the ASSUMPTION that the "church" of the NT is today the Roman Catholic church.. it was a catholic church small c.. but not the Roman church
But note that the woman did by her works express her love for Jesus. Jesus in fact, gently rebukes His host in that very passage for not showing enough kindness through good works. In this beautiful episode we have the heart of Catholic soteriology: penance expressed in good works of love for Our Lord and combined with a resolution to sin no more.
We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved
Exactly. We are saved by grace alone, as every pope since St. Peter taught.
Rom 4:4
Indeed, works done for compensation do not save. Works of self-denial done for the love of God and the neighbor save. See the Mary Magdalene episode that you yourself quoted.
And let us not forget the pediophile priests who can dispense God's grace. The whole thing would be laughable if it wasn't so blasphamous.
We don't see that "equal authority" in the scripture do we? St. Peter is one given a new name and the keys, on whome the Church is to be built, one for whom Christ has a special prayer as regards the others
[31] ...Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren. (Luke 22)
It is truethat all the bishops of the Church are sovereign princes of their own domain. The Church is not a dictatorship.
Who called [and presided at] the "Council of Jerusalem"?
But it is St. Peter who makes the winning argument. Since the council was local in Jerusalem, the bishop of Jerusalem presided, and he was St. James. This episode illustrates the model of Catholic episcopacy very well. It is conciliar in its nature and not dictatorial.
You could make the same argument that the Orthodox make: that the Early Church model gives St. Peter's chair primacy but not supremacy. With that I will not argue: the authority of the Pope in the Latin Church is indeed stronger than in other local Churches in communion with Rome (e..g Melkites, Ukrainian, Byzantine, etc). This is probably how it will be with the Orthodox also one day.
The Catholic Church defines every good Catholic as priest prophet and king in the area of his competence, and I think I am competent to offer the judgment that the condition of the American Catholic Church is infected by heresy. Others are free to disagree.
***
I am off for the day. Thank you for your company, all.
I would suggest a restudy of Romans and Galatians
Romans 1:17-18: "Therefore the just shall live by faith. The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness."
Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Romans 4:5: "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
Romans 5:1: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 10:9: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Romans 11:6: "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
Romans 14:23: "...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Galatians 2:21: "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
Galatians 3:1-3; 9-14; 21-25: "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Receive ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? ... So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.... Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the Scripture harh concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
Galatians 5:4,5: "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."
This is important for Catholics to read because they do believe keeping the law is necessary for salvation ..
Because, first, faith is very important -- a sane person would not do the works of charity unless he had faith.
Says who? Do you have evidence of this?? Think of Ted Turner as a prime example..
Generally, works done out of a legal obligation, or for a reward in this life, e.g. social recogniton or salary -- do not contribute to salvation. That is waht St. Paul teaches in Romans and Galatians and that is what the Catholic Church teaches also.
Works done to earn your salvation have no credit... God is not mocked.. he is not for sale, the blood of Christ is not for sale, salvation does not go to the hardest worker or highest bidder...
Men can do NOTHING pleasing to God, so trying to offer works He sees as sin to purchase your salvation deserves what they get .. Hells fire..
The only works that please God are those he does through us, and those works flow from our salvation ..they do not earn it
annalex wrote:
“Indeed, works done for compensation do not save. Works of self-denial done for the love of God and the neighbor save.”
I can just imagine one of the experts in the law putting this formula to Jesus ...
I can just imagine one of the Galatians arguing this point with Paul ...
What you have said here is simply New Testament pharisaism. How unutterably sad.
annalex wrote:
“Indeed, works done for compensation do not save. Works of self-denial done for the love of God and the neighbor save.”
I can just imagine one of the experts in the law putting this formula to Jesus ...
I can just imagine one of the Galatians arguing this point with Paul ...
What you have said here is simply New Testament pharisaism. How unutterably sad.
annalex wrote:
“Indeed, works done for compensation do not save. Works of self-denial done for the love of God and the neighbor save.”
I can just imagine one of the experts in the law putting this formula to Jesus ...
I can just imagine one of the Galatians arguing this point with Paul ...
What you have said here is simply New Testament pharisaism. How unutterably sad.
annalex wrote:
“Indeed, works done for compensation do not save. Works of self-denial done for the love of God and the neighbor save.”
I can just imagine one of the experts in the law putting this formula to Jesus ...
I can just imagine one of the Galatians arguing this point with Paul ...
What you have said here is simply New Testament pharisaism. How unutterably sad.
I guess that was worth repeating huh? :)
Yup. Nothing else seems to get the point across.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom. 4:4,5.
annalex, what do you plan on doing with your works of righteousness, giving God a bill? He owes you, nor any of us, NOTHING. No matter how nice you are to your neighbor. Or how you strive to keep the Commandments, or the Beatitudes. He owes you NOTHING for your efforts.
Amen! Those who insist that their salvation is dependent on their own “good works” in addition to faith in Christ only prove that they do not comprehend what grace means nor what kind of faith God requires for salvation.
It's not a good works outweighs the bad kind of thing. Sinning once is all that it takes to condemn us.
James 2: 8-11
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
This is the big problem with works. Once the Law is broken, death is required. We can't pay that obligation.
Even if we sin only once, and he rest of our life is pure as Jesus, we are under condemnation. All the other good works we do cannot cancel out that one sin or pay for that one sin, because the wages of sin is death and by the works of of the Law is no flesh justified. Nothing else can pay for it.
It has to be through faith that God will forgive us in Christ when we throw ourselves on the mercy of the court. Just like the publican praying outside the temple. The Pharisee was bragging on how he kept the Law. The publican knew he hadn't and had nothing left to appeal to but God's mercy.
"......The Dublin Archdiocese have confirmed that at the end of August changes were introduced to Canon Law and as a result it will no longer be possible for individuals to formally defect from the Catholic Church..."
LOL. Unbelievable. To paraphrase Hotel Rome -- "You can check-out any time you like, But you can never leave!"
Chapter and verse?
How many works? How do you know you did them with the right motive? That you did the right ones? That you've done enough?
Can you be sure that your motive is pure and that underlying your works isn't the thought that the works might be those that will get you saved, thus immediately negating them by them becoming works done for compensation (that compensation being heaven or a shorter term in purgatory)?
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