Posted on 03/15/2010 12:07:15 PM PDT by Colofornian
Edited on 03/23/2010 6:15:31 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]
When Glenn Beck told listeners of his radio show on March 2 that they should "run as fast as you can" from any church that preached "social or economic justice" because those were code words for Communism and Nazism, he probably thought he was tweaking a few crunchy religious liberals who didn't listen to the show anyway. Instead he managed to outrage Christians in most mainline Protestant denominations, African-American congregations, Hispanic churches, and Catholics...
(Excerpt) Read more at swampland.blogs.time.com ...
So, now it’s you handing out the rewards and not Christ. Interesting.
If I told my boy to go “dust the room” and I meant “to wipe the dust from”, if he grow up on a farm where “to dust” something meant “to sprinkle with a powder or dust,” how well would that go over?
Suppose I told my son to go “root” the new tree in the front yard and I meant plant the new tree I had just bought and he grew up in the South where “root” can easily mean “to pull, tear, or dig up by the roots” and he goes out a digs up the new tree I had planted earlier, would that be a problem?
youre shifting the discussion.
Youre complaint was that I was using circular logic.
It would be circular if it was a single author book - however we know otherwise.
Some books show us the prophecy...others, by other authors, show us the fulfillment. Isaiah fortels Christ, the NT Gospels confirm it....
To claim it is errant is to allow that it is not the the complete blueprint for salvation...that is to say, God failed & Joseph Smith succeeded in restoring Gods inability to send the Gospel of JC through 1800 years (+/-) of history...
It doesn’t matter if the Bible is a book of books, to use an items to testify for itself that it’s inerrant is called circular logic.
BTW, throughout the history of the people of God, as recorded in the Bible, started with Adam and Eve, there are plenty of instances where people rejected God and chose a different path. Did God fail during those rejections?
Was the Reformation of the late Middle ages necessary started by Calvin, Wesley, and Luther?
You say that the Bible itself says that it’s the complete blueprint for salvation, but they Bible doesn’t say that outright, only with great inference will one be able to find that in the Bible.
Did you mean “Where” as opposed to “when”? The first sentence doesn’t work. Assuming you did, I’ll answer it this way.
If you were familiar with LdS doctrine, you would know what’s going to happen to folks like me and CC. Because we left the church and for me especially, having been a priesthood holder, we’re “doomed to outer darkness”. You can ask Normandy, he didn’t believe it was LdS doctrine until shown the proof.
You may not desire to push Christ out of the judgement seat but JS did.
According to BY, JS has already laid claim to the judgement seat, so I suppose you don’t have to compete for that job.
No, her reply is not “interesting”. You’re trying to make something out of nothing.
When are you going to answer CC’s questions? She played nice with you for quite some time and you kept stringing it out.
Man up and answer the questions.
How about THEMSELVES?
Does THEIR work count towards their OWN salvation?
|
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541
#3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
Joseph Smith |
different books - your argument falls flat
BTW, throughout the history of the people of God, as recorded in the Bible, started with Adam and Eve, there are plenty of instances where people rejected God and chose a different path. Did God fail during those rejections?
No, they failed God....God of course is unchanging
Was the Reformation of the late Middle ages necessary started by Calvin, Wesley, and Luther?
actually it was just Luther - but thats another thread - Did God use it to reach even more people? .....Now at this point you''' say - well the same is true for mormonism....BUT, again, Mormonism takes on a pile of heretical doctrine that change the very Nature of God / Christ and the HS.....you are blind to it though because that would mean your entire belief system was wrong.....your subconscious ego will reject it
You say that the Bible itself says that it’s the complete blueprint for salvation, but they Bible doesn’t say that outright, only with great inference will one be able to find that in the Bible.
Really....really ? - A plain reading of the Bible verses below simply detail that very plan - (and you dont need peep stones)
God's Plan of Salvation
1 John 5:11-12 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has this eternal life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this eternal life.
Man’s Problem
Separation From God
Isaiah 59:2 But your sinful acts have alienated you from your God; your sins have caused him to reject you and not listen to your prayers.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Habakkuk 1:13a You are too just to tolerate evil; you are unable to condone wrongdoing
The Futility of Our Works
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not of works, so that no one can boast.
Titus 3:5-7 he saved us, not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior. 7 And so, since we have been justified by his grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life.
Romans 4:1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh, has discovered regarding this matter? 2 For if Abraham was declared righteous by the works of the law, he has something to boast about (but not before God). 3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.
God’s Solution
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 1:4 who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 4:25 He was given over because of our transgressions and was raised for the sake of our justification.
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made the one who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the right-eousness of God.
1 Peter 3:18 Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit.
How Do We Receive God’s Son?
John 1:12 But to all who have received him--those who believe in his name--he has given the right to become God's children
John 3:16-18 For this is the way God loved the world: he gave his one and only Son that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
so you discount Biblical prophets, you discount one book proving the inerrancy of other prophets, you claim the plan is not readily visible without great inference.....whats next ur, what will you discount now?
youve been cheated - and thats a damned shame
RE-defining words is what folks who wish to mask their intentions do.
At least you are the first MORMON that I can remember that actually admits the words are different in meaning.
I just did...
I can't!
What the hell is PHYSICAL 'salvation' supposed to mean?
(You may use MORMON definitions as needed.)
And yet this is EXACTLY what MORMONism does!
Christ told his apostles that they were going to judge Israel. The original 12 didn’t push Christ out of the judgment seat. Christ also told JS that he would judge the people of the last dispensation. How is that any different than what Christ did with the original 12?
As far as folks like you and CC, I seriously doubt if you will be going to “outer darkness.” I don’t think that you don’t have the necessary “qualifications” to become a son of Perdition.
You’re assumption about JS is based on a belief in JS. I don’t have that belief anymore.
As far as the “sons of perdition”, try this post and thread...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2359545/posts?page=127#127
I more than qualify.
I believe that CC has based some of her comments and questions on inaccuracies. I am trying to verify this belief of mine.
She stated that in Mormon doctrine, salvation is not dwelling with God. That is wrong. I haven’t heard her correct that. She also keeps saying that Mormon “exaltation” is equivalent to Evangelical “salvation” and it isn’t. I believe that the phrase “eternal life” is getting in the way there, because “eternal life” in the Evangelical world doesn’t mean the same thing as it does in the Mormon world.
I’m not stringing it out. I’m just trying to make sure that we are at least talking on the same page and not just past each other.
First off, there is no salvation without the atonement of Christ.
Secondly, I have heard many of my Evangelical friends say that their salvation is only through grace, but the rewards they get in heaven is based on their works. Is this true? If it’s not true, then how is it wrong?
From the Baker Evangelical Dictionary:
The Variation in Reward. Salvation and eternal life are the same for all Christians but the rewards given to each varies, dependent upon the faithful labor expended. It is clear from the parable of the talents in Matthew 25 that the lord of the servants expected more from the five-talented man than he did from the two-talented or the one-talented individuals. Note that the talents were dispensed according to personal ability to handle them (v. 15). The ones with lesser amounts had lesser responsibility. Paul says that at the judgment of the believer’s works, each will receive a reward according to his or her labor. Matthew 5:12 speaks of great reward in heaven and 2 John 8 speaks of a full reward, both references indicating that the rewards will not all be the same.
Go to this link. It a quick read and talks about the semantics of salvation in Mormon phraseology. http://www.jefflindsay.com/grace_def.shtml
Elsie, I have relatives who live in Australia and there are plenty of words they use over there that mean something very differently than what they mean here is the states. The same type of problem also exists between the Catholics and the Evangelicals.
I am not the first Mormon to ever admit that. There was a book written about that problem. It’s call “How Wide the Divide.”
And I don’t think it’s a matter of Mormons RE-defining the words, because if it was, then wouldn’t the Protestants be guilty of masking their intentions from the Catholics since the Catholics have been around for a much longer time.
Who are the Australians trying to mask their intentions from?
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