NZ Anglican Church's Billboard Mocks Mary, Joseph and Virgin Birth

St. Mathew In The City ^ | 13 Dec 2009 | Glynn Cardy

[PanzerKardinal]

A "Progressive" Anglican church in Auckland New Zealand paid to have this billboard placed near their parish.

Here are some excerpts written by the Vicar, Archdeacon Glynn Cardy on the church's website touting what he did.

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To make the news at Christmas it seems a priest just needs to question the literalness of a virgin giving birth. Many in society mistakenly think that to challenge literalism is to challenge the norms of Christianity. What progressive interpretations try to do however is remove the supernatural obfuscation and delve into the deeper spiritual truth of this festival.

Christian fundamentalism believes a supernatural male God who lived above sent his sperm into the womb of the virgin Mary. Although there were a series of miraculous events surrounding Jesus’ birth – like wandering stars and angelic choirs – the real miracle was his death and literal resurrection 33 years later. The importance of this literal resurrection is the belief that it was a cosmic transaction whereby the male God embraced humanity only after being satiated by Jesus’ innocent blood.

Progressive Christianity is distinctive in that not only does it articulate a clear view it is also interested in engaging with those who differ. Its vision is one of robust engagement. If every Christian thought the same not only would life be deadly boring but also the fullness of God would be diminished. This is the consequence of its incarnational theology: God is among us; even among those we disagree with or dislike.

[reaganaut]

ping to #320

[Tennessee Nana]

but I also know that confessing that is not essential to salvation;
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That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. Romans 10:10

[reaganaut]

We are straining at gnats!

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Perhaps and perhaps not.

Many of my questions to you, and my responses relate to my concerns of groups, like the LDS, who put an emphasis on “religion” over a relationship with Jesus. Having been LDS, and now being a Born Again Christian, I am very concerned with those who so readily accept groups with non-orthodox theology into the body of Christ.

That said, I believe there are a few doctrines that relate to salvation, and many others that do not. An emphasis on non-essential doctrines can lead to division in the Body, and I oppose that as well.

I also oppose those who take a ‘relativist’ point of view, because that leads to the idea that “all roads lead to God”, an idea that our Lord and Savior specifically spoke against. He is the way, He is the Truth, He is the life, and a proper Christology (which orthodox Christians) is essential to be considered a “Christian”.

From my experience and learning while I was LDS (even quotes by their own leaders), I am aware that their Christology is not in line with orthodox Christian teachings. This is not being judgmental, this is speaking from experience.

I have no problem accepting most Christian denominations as part of the Body of Christ, and tend to rail against denominationalism. However, some of the “big tent” theology has led to certain members/leaders of certain denominations adopting unbiblical ideas (ordination of homosexuals, abortion etc.). Many of these same members/leaders also tend to readily accept anyone who professes to be a Christian, regardless of their Christology.

I hope this clears up some of the muddy water.

[Tennessee Nana]

I have told you and others I have recieve a witness by the Holy Ghost before I ever knew about the Church or missionaries etc!
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Then why did you disobey the Holy Ghost and join tyhe mormon cult ????

[Tennessee Nana]

I was startled when I first read #202...

That suggestive, unGodly statement was in the article...

not from me...

Its unfortunate that this so called “pastor” has such little respect and fear of God that he would commision such a pornagraphic billboard...

from the comments up thread, the Christians in here are shocked and saddened by the smutty message and the offense against Almighty God and His only begotten Son, Jesus, and the Virgin Mary...

The non-Christians think it amusing...

There is nothing funny about it..

[aruanan]

So, he set his own criteria and then fulfilled it. Uh-huh.

In a little while I will go to the mailbox. This will prove I am the messiah.

So, does this mean when I go to the mailbox I will be the messiah?

Has it ever occurred to you that the messiah must fulfill the criteria set forth by G-d in previous revelation (the Hebrew Bible) rather than setting his own criteria?

Let someone put you to death and then raise yourself from the dead. I seem to recall several of your philosophical brethren getting pissed off at Jesus for healing a man on the Sabbath. He replied that because of the patriarchs they circumcise a boy on the Sabbath so as not the break the law of Moses and demanded why they should be angry with him because he healed the whole man on the Sabbath. They also became angry when he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven" and grumbled that only God could forgive sins. He said to them, "Which is easier, to say "Your sins are forgiven" or "Get up. Take your mat and walk"?" And then told them that to show them that he had authority to forgive sins he commanded the paralytic to get up, take his mat, and go home. Another time your philosophical compatriots got mad at Jesus when his disciples were picking handfuls of grain on the Sabbath and eating it without washing their hands. He asked them if they didn't know that even David ate the showbread in the temple that wasn't lawful for any but the priests to eat and then declared that he was Lord of the Sabbath. All these things, well, except for the healings, could have just been someone talking out of his ass, but to declare that he would be put to death and then raise himself from the dead and actually do it makes his previous statements about himself more likely true than not.

Of course, you could just choose not to accept his testimony or the testimony of those who witnessed these things and hide behind your own understanding (or lack of it) of Jewish law and prophecy as some of his compatriots did, but it'll have the same result for you that it did for them.

[Tennessee Nana]

Stirring up trouble is very much a New Zealand way of making a point.
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As a born and bred New Zealander, I never did see that happen...

New Zealanders always tended to be straight forward...

say what you mean and mean wghat you say...

Worked for us...

Now you were born in China was it ???

Immigrated to Canada...

and then immigrated to New Zealand...

Maybe you brought the habit with you...

Along with that Australian practice of saying “Gidday mate”

[reaganaut]

Ouch. Good question but...ouch.

[Tennessee Nana]

I also suspect that provoking this sort of controversy was *precisely* what the pastor would have had in mind
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I think you said up thread that people had left this church and it had died off...

Got liberal, politically correct, same sex practices etc...

No wonder people left with this unGodly stuff going on...

Jesus is God and is Holy, Righteous, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, the Savior, the Word, the Spotless Lamb of God, who commands us to flee the very appearance of evil...

What Christian in their right mind would attend there...

As Christians we are told not to hang out with the unrighteous but to come out from among them...

[Tennessee Nana]

NZ is heavily mormon and has been for decades. Perhaps that influences some opinions.
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Several decades ago, I knew some girls in NZ that liked to go to the mormon ward house because the missionaries from America were cute and the “church” was lenient and didnt expect much from them ...

I went to a couple of youth evenings with them...

The girls were liked to grab the missionary boys and kiss them (and other stuff) because they werent suppose to...

I felt sorry for the poor mishies until I realized that the boys would place themselves right in the line of fire...

So much for living righteous lives etc...

Of course the girls and boys were unmarried...

But why all the hoopla about how so called “clean living” they are when they obviously are not when the opportunity presents itself...

And then there is the matter of excusing that obsene billboard...

Shades of the Utah style of “righteousness”...

[reaganaut]

Right after I joined the LDS, I had a roomate whose 17 yr old (almost 18) little sister (also LDS) came from a visit from Utah.

The missionaries used to come by every day for lunch, so they didn’t have to ride their bikes up this steep hill where they lived.

One of the missionaries was having trouble on his mission (only been out a few months) and homesick for UT (he lived 2 towns over from the sister.

Anyway, this mishie fell for the little sis and asked her if she would marry him if he left his mission. She said yes. So he leaves his mission, goes home and she refuses to marry him b/c he returned home “dishonored”.

[M Kehoe]

I don't care what the atheists reading this post think, but when Jesus returns, He is really going to be pi$$ed. And, it won't be pretty.

5.56mm

[Zionist Conspirator]

Let someone put you to death and then raise yourself from the dead. I seem to recall several of your philosophical brethren getting pissed off at Jesus for healing a man on the Sabbath. He replied that because of the patriarchs they circumcise a boy on the Sabbath so as not the break the law of Moses and demanded why they should be angry with him because he healed the whole man on the Sabbath. They also became angry when he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven" and grumbled that only God could forgive sins. He said to them, "Which is easier, to say "Your sins are forgiven" or "Get up. Take your mat and walk"?" And then told them that to show them that he had authority to forgive sins he commanded the paralytic to get up, take his mat, and go home. Another time your philosophical compatriots got mad at Jesus when his disciples were picking handfuls of grain on the Sabbath and eating it without washing their hands. He asked them if they didn't know that even David ate the showbread in the temple that wasn't lawful for any but the priests to eat and then declared that he was Lord of the Sabbath. All these things, well, except for the healings, could have just been someone talking out of his ass, but to declare that he would be put to death and then raise himself from the dead and actually do it makes his previous statements about himself more likely true than not.

Being raised from the dead does not make one the messiah. Working miracles does not make one the messiah. Only meeting the exact criteria of the Torah and Prophets as they themselves describe them makes one the messiah. Similarly, claiming to be "lord of the Sabbath" does not make one is "lord of the Sabbath." I am the King of Razzbo Jazzbo. See? I just claimed to be the King of Razzbo Jazzbo. That doesn't make me the King of Razzbo Jazzbo.

Of course, you could just choose not to accept his testimony or the testimony of those who witnessed these things and hide behind your own understanding (or lack of it) of Jewish law and prophecy as some of his compatriots did, but it'll have the same result for you that it did for them.

For all I know, J*sus did rise from the dead. But if I accept the testimony of his disciples that still doesn't make him the messiah. G-d had already warned Israel in Deuteronomy 13 that if anyone worked miracles as "proof" that Israel should stop observing the Torah they were to pay it no attention whatsoever, because G-d was merely testing them. The miracle can be real, but it's only a test. The Torah does not allow for chr*stianity.

If you cannot agree with me very well. You think you're right and I think I'm right.

Be well.

[Tennessee Nana]

Amen

[Elsie]

I have told you and others I have recieve a witness by the Holy Ghost<

Golly; I must have forgotten.

My mistake.

Just EXACTLY what did the HOLY GHOST tell you?

[Elsie]

I seem to recall a little thing called the Inquisition?

Selling indulgences?

[Elsie]

I’m getting tired of hearing about sperm.

 

It's reserved to Onan and them unclean emmissions in Leviticus; and...

What is your church doing to help the male to stay true?

 

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"All of this should be conveyed without having priesthood leaders focus upon intimate matters which are a part of husband and wife relationships. Skillful interviewing and counseling can occur without discussion of clinical details by placing firm responsibility on individual members of the Church to put their lives in order before exercising the privilege of entering a house of the Lord. The First Presidency has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure, or unholy practice. If a person is engaged in a practice which troubles him enough to ask about it, he should discontinue it."
- Official Declaration of the First Presidency of the Church, January 5th, 1982

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"Prophets anciently and today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth toward godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation-practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality...."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pages 77-79, 81-82

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"Among the most common sexual sins our young people commit are necking and petting. Not only do these improper relations often lead to fornication, [unwed] pregnancy, and abortions - all ugly sins - but in and of themselves they are pernicious evils, and it is often difficult for youth to distinguish where one ends and another begins. They awaken lust and stir evil thoughts and sex desires. They are but parts of the whole family of related sins and indiscretions. Almost like twins, 'petting' and fornication are alike."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 65

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"Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 196

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"And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth." (Genesis 4:9-14.) That was true of murder. It is also true of illicit sex, which, of course, includes all petting, fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and all other perversions. The Lord may say to offenders, as He did to Cain, "What hast thou done?" The children thus conceived make damning charges against you; the companions who have been frustrated and violated condemn you; the body that has been defiled cries out against you; the spirit which has been dwarfed convicts you. You will have difficulty throughout the ages in totally forgiving yourself."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965. Often-used quote still used today in LDS seminary classes.

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"I do not find in the Bible the modern terms "petting" nor "homosexuality," yet I found numerous scriptures which forbade such acts under by whatever names they might be called. I could not find the term "homosexuality," but I did find numerous places where the Lord condemned such a practice with such vigor that even the death penalty was assessed."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965

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"If adultery or fornication justified the death penalty in the old days, and still in Christ's day, is the sin any less today because the laws of the land do not assess the death penalty for it? Is the act less grievous? There must be a washing, a purging, a changing of attitudes, a correcting of appraisals, a strengthening toward self-mastery. There must be many prayers, and volumes of tears. There must be an inner conviction giving to the sin its full diabolical weight. There must be increased devotion and much thought and study. And this takes energy and time and often is accompanied with sore embarrassment, heavy deprivations and deep trials, even if indeed one is not excommunicated from the Church, losing all spiritual blessings."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Page 155

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"How like the mistletoe is immorality. The killer plant starts with a sticky sweet berry. Little indiscretions are the berries -- indiscretions like sex thoughts sex discussions, passionate kissing, pornography. The leaves and little twigs are masturbation and necking and such, growing with every exercise. The full-grown plant is petting and sex looseness. It confounds, frustrates, and destroys like the parasite if it is not cut out and destroyed, for, in time it robs the tree, bleeds its life, and leaves it barren and dry; and, strangely enough, the parasite dies with its host."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference Address, April 1, 1967.

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[mrreaganaut]

Actually, I found the ‘message’ of St. Matthews-in-the-City just as shocking and saddening as the billboard itself:

‘He said the true importance of Christmas “is in the radical hospitality Jesus offered to the poor, the despised, women, children, and the sick, and says: ‘this is the essence of God’. His death was a consequence of the offensive nature of that hospitality and his resurrection a symbolic vindication”.’

HOSPITALITY? SYMBOLIC?!?!?!?!

no concept of salvation at all...

(and in addition to being sick from worry over New Zealander souls in danger of damnation, now I can’t get the musical number ‘Be Our Guest’ from Disney’s Beauty and the Beast out of my head)

[Elsie]

You're completely missing my point. If one reads the "old testament" first (and believes it is Divinely inspired) without ever having heard of the "new testament," and then reads the "new testament," will that person believe that the "new testament" is what it claims to be? I say the answer is no.

Then how does one exp-lain all the Jews for Jesus and other Messianic Jewish groups?

Would they not fall into the "Believe the OT" first?

[reaganaut]

Often-used quote still used today in LDS seminary classes.

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I must be tired. I read that as “semenary”.