NZ Anglican Church's Billboard Mocks Mary, Joseph and Virgin Birth

How convenient! The only ones in Jesus' "family" who weren't heroic and saintly and "trustworthy" were all the "brethren"!

All the Apostles except for John ran away from the Crucifixion...Jesus' brothers didn't accept Him as the Son of God...How do I know that??? Because John tells us so...

Didn't know anyone today was sooo cozy with the "brethren" of that day and their proclivities - even AFTER their years of such an assumed intimate family influence! Not one of them!! Like a Jewish mother would be apt to say ..."So, you were there??"

Lots of us are real cozy with the 'brethren'...Was I there??? Nope...Didn't need to be...John wrote all about it...And I read what John wrote...

I'm certain "arrangements" could have been made prior to this moment since the Christ could certainly foresee the ultimate faithfulness of the other disciples - esp. the one He called "Rock". No, not trustworthy at all - just the one He built His Church upon! After all, Peter had the experience of his own mother-in-law's care! Since "brethren" then were like "brethren" today, we all have a very large family indeed!!

I can't help it if you chose to believe that fairy tale instead of God's written words...Jesus built His church upon Himself...He is the way, the truth and the life, not Peter, not Paul, not Apollos...

I can’t help it if you chose to believe that fairy tale instead of God’s written words...

Says Pope Iscool the First, while ignoring the Bible time after time.

I’m always amazed at what “progressives” say “fundamentalists” believe!

Mel

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.

First, let's establish some truth...Your church CAN NOT establish an unbroken line of lineage from Peter...There are many 'missing links' in the list...

Scripture says that all the Apostles were chosen by Jesus...Twelve Apostles...

The eleven Apostles prayed for knowledge from God who to appoint as the 12th Apostle...And then they drew straws...

So God did not put it on all their hearts to pick the next Apostle...God only influenced 6 out of the eleven...Those other five who voted against God must have felt pretty bad...

Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

And this is your proof text...But then God hand picked Paul to be an Apostle...That makes 13 Apostles...

God fulfilled Acts 1:20 with Paul...Could be that the 11 acted a little hastily when they decided to pick their own Apostle...I mean, no one ever heard of or from this 12th Apostle after he got the six straws...

God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”

Jesus said the Holy Spirit would remind the Apostles what He said so they could teach us...They then wrote it all down...After the scripture was written down, there was no more need for Apostles...Leaders (not masters), yes...Thus pastors and deacons...

Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Nope...Ananias was not a bishop...Ananias was a disciple...Just like me and many millions like me...God uses regular, normal people...If what you say was true, God would have used another Apostle to do the laying of the hands...

Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

And of course this is not biblical and it's nonsense...

Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church.

That's true but not the Church...The church...Any church that believes and teaches the Gospel...

2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Now if you were a student of the bible, you'd know where you err...God didn't seal certain men...He sealed ALL men with the Holy Spirit who trust in Him...

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

Yer making this stuff up...No one in the scripture expected to carry on as an Apostle after the Apostle's deaths...

There were requirements to be an Apostle...One of which was you had to be with Jesus from the beginning up through His Crucifixion...Paul was the exception to the rule but he was there while all this took place...Don't you guys read any of the scriptures???

2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

Neither Paul nor Timothy were Catholic bishops...They were born again, bible believing Christians...

1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).

HaHa...Man, read the scriptures...You have to take the previous verse to understand it...

1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

John wasn't saying we hear him or another Apostle or elder to the exclusion of the scripture...He is comparing us to non believers...We know who teaches God's word...Especially now since we have God's word to compare with what's taught...

Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.

So then you don't believe the book of Hebrews...Hebrews says this priesthood is done away with...

This balderdash apparently works on those stuck in the middle of the Tiber Protestants, biblically uneducated people and cradle Catholics, but it doesn't get to first base with someone who reads and BELIEVES the scriptures...

Sad. Our Lord created His Church for us and He commands His Apostles and their successors to Baptize all the Nations. But Pope **** the First decrees otherwise. Very sad.

Well, it is sort of sad. But you should thank God that He will show mercy upon the invincibly ignorant. So people who are taught this type of thing will not be held accountable nearly to the same degree as their teachers will.

At the time of Christ’s birth it was a Jewish practice for a young pregnant woman to be married to a much older man in order to protect her. It is thought that Joseph was just such a man, possibly even one who had already been married and had children.

Mary - perpetual virgin?

The truth is often offensive.

Douay-Rheims Bible             And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

King James Bible               And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

American King James Version    And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

American Standard Version      and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

Bible in Basic English         And he had no connection with her till she had given birth to a son; and he gave him the name Jesus.

Darby Bible Translation        and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

English Revised Version        and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

Webster's Bible Translation    And knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born son: and he called his name JESUS.

New International Version      But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

New Living Translation But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

New American Standard Bible but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

International Standard Version He did not have marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

Yup...

1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).
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All that extraneous stuff you added to the verse stood out like a neon light...

John was talking to Christians...then and now...

When he said “we” he was talking about he and the group he was addressing...them then and us now...

He had been saying we and our all the way through the passage...

The epistle is to us, the Christians...

We are all called to preach the Gospel, ti tell others about jesus...

Jesus told us to “Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature” Mark 16:15

and also told us what to do if someone would not listen..

“But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, ‘Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.’ “ Luke 10:10, 11

So now John is saying the same thing...

We are of God: he that knows God hears us; he that is not of God hears not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 1 John 4:6

At the time of Christ’s birth it was a Jewish practice for a young pregnant woman to be
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Stoned

I, for one, am reluctant to accuse someone of not being Christian or saved. The Lord will judge that. Jesus’s greatest condemnation is on hypocrites who claim spiritual superiority.

I can say, however, that certain doctrinal beliefs are, or are not, orthodox Christianity or Biblically supported. Most of these are not essential to salvation, yet we allow them to divide us bitterly.

Salvation comes doing the Father's will, and earnestly repenting when we fail in that.

Many of these “missionary” type churches are clearly NOT orthodox, but that doesn't mean they're not doing our Father's will. They are getting people exposed to the message of Christ; and if the Spirit convicts them, they may very well deepen their faith into more orthodox details.

Of course. But they, unlike many first century Jews, overshot by a couple of millennia.
How do you know this?

Testimony of the Messiah and those who knew him. Like those early friends of his, I really don't put a lot of confidence in the testimony of those who subcontracted Rome to hang him like a flag in the sky.

How do you know he was the messiah?

We can know that Our Lady remained virgin during and after the birth of our Lord by the Tradition of the Church, which includes Scripture and the Church's teaching Magisterium.

First: the word "till" (or "until") does not mean what you claim it to mean here. It describes what happened up to the time of Christ's birth, not what happened after that. We know this because it is used elsewhere in Scripture in this way. For example, in 2 Samuel 6:23, we read that "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death." Now, unless you believe that Michal had children after her death, you have to admit to "till/until" can mean something other than what you claim.

Second: The Church teaches and has always held that Our Lady remained a virgin after the birth of our Lord. This teaching was handed down to us orally and in writing by those who knew the Apostles personally, for example in the Protoevangelium of James, which was written around A.D. 120. Our Lady's perpetual virginity was also taught by the great Fathers and Saints, including Hilary of Poitiers, Athanasius, Epiphanius of Salamis, Jerome, Didymus the Blind, Ambrose of Milan, Augustine, Cyril of Alexandria, and many others. Even the arch-heretics Martin Luther and Ulrich Zwingli held Mary to be perpetually virgin, and those among the early Protestants who did not explicitly teach this nevertheless remained open to it. Calvin, for example, wrote

"Let us rest satisfied with this, that no just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the Evangelist, as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called first-born; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin. It is said that Joseph knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born son: but this is limited to that very time. What took place afterwards, the historian does not inform us. Such is well known to have been the practice of the inspired writers. Certainly, no man will ever raise a question on this subject, except from curiosity; and no man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation" ¹.

To sum up: the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is fundamental to orthodox Christian belief. Those who choose to reject it stray from that belief.

I, for one, am reluctant to accuse someone of not being Christian or saved.
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Jesus wasn’t...

and as a Christian, I’m not...

Jesus called them whited sepulchers, dead man’s bones, vipers, etc...

He drove them out of His Father’s house with a whip and let people know they were not Christians..

Jesus divides Christians and non-Christians and so did the apostles...

Mormons are not Christians...

“My first response is a reference to the LDS doctrine that Mary was one of God’s wives and that God had sex with Mary to conceive Jesus...my perspective is different than most Christians (having been Mormon before I became a Christian)”

I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head: People see in billboard what they are PREDISPOSED to see!

I myself, who hadn't read the accompanying article very well, saw it as humorous; a joke about Joseph having a inferiority complex; and perhaps a dig at the Romans’ “ever-Virgin” doctrine—but NOT insulting to either of the two saints or Christ.

How do you know he was the messiah?

He said his raising himself from the dead would constitute proof of everything he had said in that matter and he rose from the dead. It's the best documented event in all of ancient history.

Well, you're wrong again...Our Lord did not create His church for us...He created us to become His church...

Iscool, I agree. The Greek word for "church" is called-out ones -- people (vs. an institutional approach to understanding the Church).

...He commands His Apostles and their successors to Baptize all the Nations [Narses]

Iscool's rest of response: Well, you're wrong again...There aren't any succesors to the Apostles...Getting baptized doesn't make one a Christian...Turning to God makes one a Christian...Baptism comes afterward...What sad is you don't seem to know this...

OK, Iscool, after agreeing w/you on the above, I guess I don't understand what's so wrong about Narses saying that Jesus commands his leaders to go and baptize all nations? When you respond that Narses was "wrong" you're not militating vs. the poster, but Jesus Himself...perhaps you need a Bible refresher?

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matt. 28:18-20)

(If you have a problem, Iscool, with Jesus as Commissioner of His Church...just say so...don't pretend that you're simply trumping another poster...and if you're an Evangelical like I am, your response above is pretty embarrassing)

Baptism comes afterward...What sad is you don't seem to know this...

At least twice in the New Testament, faith/belief preceded baptism (Gal. 3:26-27; Acts 18:8);
...at least twice, the message was received first, and baptism ensued (Acts 2:41; 8:37)
...and 3-4 times people received the Holy Spirit, and THEN were baptized (Acts 10:47; 11:16-17; 9:5-6, 17-18;)
...yet, the NT & early church history doesn't stop there; it adds...
...Jesus told Saul to be baptized and THEN call on His Name (Acts 22:16);
...and 3-4 times whole households were baptized simultaneously even when perhaps ONLY the parents expressed faith -- as these baptisms likely included children and perhaps infants (1 Cor. 1:16; Acts 16:14-15, 33)...making this family dynamic less individualistically 'decisions for Christ' than you'd like to present it;

The Acts 16 example is prominent: We know Lydia believed first and was baptized, but how can you conclusively say the same thing of her household?

One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. "If you consider me a believer in the Lord," she said, "come and stay at my house." And she persuaded us. (Acts 16:14-15)

Acts 16 says very specifically that "The Lord opened HER heart" -- not her family's heart or "their" hearts.

But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

- - - - - - - - -
That is the verse that kept getting me in trouble with the nuns at Catholic school.

Poor Sr. Josephine....had a nervous breakdown middle of the year.

I, for one, am reluctant to accuse someone of not being Christian or saved.

I can say, however, that certain doctrinal beliefs are, or are not, orthodox Christianity or Biblically supported. Most of these are not essential to salvation,

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What about those doctrines that ARE essential to Salvation, such as the person, work and nature of Jesus Christ, and the Trinity. How do you respond to someone who claims to be Christian yet is unorthodox or contrary to the Bible in these areas? Do you still think they are Christians?

He said his raising himself from the dead would constitute proof of everything he had said in that matter and he rose from the dead. It's the best documented event in all of ancient history.

So, he set his own criteria and then fulfilled it. Uh-huh.

In a little while I will go to the mailbox. This will prove I am the messiah.

So, does this mean when I go to the mailbox I will be the messiah?

Has it ever occurred to you that the messiah must fulfill the criteria set forth by G-d in previous revelation (the Hebrew Bible) rather than setting his own criteria?

“How do you know he was the messiah?”

Daniel 9 narrows the field considerably...