Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.

My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.

I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.

It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.

I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.

Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."

***You MUST accept the Grace of God.

No argument from the Reformed there. :)***

I think that there is. Acceptance is something that I do, it is not an external action upon me. The Reformed postion appears to be that men to be mechanically acted upon and have no choice in the matter.

***FOR SALVATION, the Reformed are going to be judged on the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross.***

You are going to be judged by the Reformed God by something that Jesus did?

If we would turn from Calvin to the Bible, we find:

John 12:
44
Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in the one who sent me,
45
and whoever sees me sees the one who sent me.
46
I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness.
47
And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world.
48
Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day,

This would indicate that we are Judged on whether or not we accept Him.

We may then go to Luke 19:
11
While they were listening to him speak, he proceeded to tell a parable because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the kingdom of God would appear there immediately.
12
So he said, “A nobleman went off to a distant country to obtain the kingship for himself and then to return.
13
He called ten of his servants and gave them ten gold coins 5 and told them, ‘Engage in trade with these until I return.’
14
His fellow citizens, however, despised him and sent a delegation after him to announce, ‘We do not want this man to be our king.’
15
But when he returned after obtaining the kingship, he had the servants called, to whom he had given the money, to learn what they had gained by trading.
16
The first came forward and said, ‘Sir, your gold coin has earned ten additional ones.’
17
He replied, ‘Well done, good servant! You have been faithful in this very small matter; take charge of ten cities.’
18
Then the second came and reported, ‘Your gold coin, sir, has earned five more.’
19
And to this servant too he said, ‘You, take charge of five cities.’
20
Then the other servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your gold coin; I kept it stored away in a handkerchief,
21
for I was afraid of you, because you are a demanding person; you take up what you did not lay down and you harvest what you did not plant.’
22
He said to him, ‘With your own words I shall condemn you, you wicked servant. You knew I was a demanding person, taking up what I did not lay down and harvesting what I did not plant;
23
why did you not put my money in a bank? Then on my return I would have collected it with interest.’
24
And to those standing by he said, ‘Take the gold coin from him and give it to the servant who has ten.’
25
But they said to him, ‘Sir, he has ten gold coins.’
26
‘I tell you, to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
27
Now as for those enemies of mine who did not want me as their king, bring them here and slay them before me.’”

The servants were rewarded for what they did or didn’t do.

Matt 25:
1
“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2
Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
3
The foolish ones, when taking their lamps, brought no oil with them,
4
but the wise brought flasks of oil with their lamps.
5
Since the bridegroom was long delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6
At midnight, there was a cry, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7
Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
8
The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
9
But the wise ones replied, ‘No, for there may not be enough for us and you. Go instead to the merchants and buy some for yourselves.’
10
While they went off to buy it, the bridegroom came and those who were ready went into the wedding feast with him. Then the door was locked.
11
Afterwards the other virgins came and said, ‘Lord, Lord, open the door for us!’
12
But he said in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, I do not know you.’
13
Therefore, stay awake, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
14
“It will be as when a man who was going on a journey called in his servants and entrusted his possessions to them.
15
To one he gave five talents; 8 to another, two; to a third, one—to each according to his ability. Then he went away. Immediately
16
the one who received five talents went and traded with them, and made another five.
17
Likewise, the one who received two made another two.
18
But the man who received one went off and dug a hole in the ground and buried his master’s money.
19
After a long time the master of those servants came back and settled accounts with them.
20
The one who had received five talents came forward bringing the additional five. He said, ‘Master, you gave me five talents. See, I have made five more.’
21
His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’
22
(Then) the one who had received two talents also came forward and said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. See, I have made two more.’
23
His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’
24
Then the one who had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a demanding person, harvesting where you did not plant and gathering where you did not scatter;
25
so out of fear I went off and buried your talent in the ground. Here it is back.’
26
His master said to him in reply, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I did not plant and gather where I did not scatter?
27
Should you not then have put my money in the bank so that I could have got it back with interest on my return?
28
Now then! Take the talent from him and give it to the one with ten.
29
For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
30
And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’

The servants were rewarded for what they did or didn’t do.

Revelation 22:
12
“Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.

All will be rewarded for what they did or didn’t do.

Matt 25:
31
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32
and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37
Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44
Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

All will be Judged according to their deeds.

One of the differences between the Reformed and the Apostolic views is that we view God as a God of mercy and love and not as an elitist.

“”Would Archbishop Sheen call an amoeba in a petri dish “free”? It really depends on how you look at it doesn't it?””

You're forgetting that God gave man power to rule over moving things and animals. It is the freedom of Man who took the freedom away from the amoeba by putting it in a petri dish and enslaving it outside of its enviornment.

From the Scriptures

“And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.”
Genesis 1:26

Thou hast made him a little less than the angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honour: And hast set him over the works of thy hands. Thou hast subjected all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen: moreover the beasts also of the fields. The birds of the air, and the fishes of the sea, that pass through the paths of the sea. O Lord our Lord, how admirable is thy name in all the earth! Pslams 8:6-10

FK-””Man has varying levels of freedom within the parameters that God sets.””

Perhaps you can explain what these levels are?

Man certainly has freedom to enslave himself by cursing God,committing adultery ,aborting babies etc....

Can you name some things that man is NOT free to do within the bounds of physical laws of nature?

“Freedom that ignores the transcendent difference between good and evil ends in the denial of freedom itself.”
-Fulton J. Sheen

FK: ***Is our God a God of absolutes or of hypotheticals?***

God is. What we know of Him is what He has chosen to tell us.

Without seeing God as a Being of absolutes, thesis and antithesis quickly turn into synthesis (relativism). Theological disaster follows, as we see in our modern world.

But we can reject His Grace as Jesus kept telling us, and the Epistles keep telling us.

How does one reject His grace under Catholicism? Or, what is the nature of that grace? I thought that God "gives" the grace to all, and the method of purchase of that grace (acceptance) is the doing of enough good deeds to merit salvation. I thought this was the nature of the conditional gift that you believe is all God gives. Is the method of rejection simply a failure to perform well enough?

Rejection of the philosophy of free will reduces Creation to a mechanical program in which God is enslaved to His own predestination.

If you call our view of God's predestination enslavement (presumably pejorative) then you disallow God HIS FREE WILL to choose whom He wants to be with Him in Heaven. You insist that it is man's choice, NOT God's choice. We think the Creator deserves the ultimate choice, not the creation.

There is a huge difference between enabling and frogmarching. The Gospels keep referring to behaviour of humans in a free will sense.

Correct, and that is why it is error to characterize the Reformed view as frogmarching. The word "frogmarching" connotes "against one's will". The fact is that no one is dragged kicking and screaming to true Christian faith. I've never seen it and I've never heard of it. Frogmarching would be like Fox News correspondent Steve Centanni's "conversion" to Islam. That is not Reformed theology.

Instead, I see before us a choice - eternal bliss and love in the presence of God versus eternal torment and damnation. As believers, to you and me this choice is a no-brainer. We UNDERSTAND the choice. However, to all men in their Fallen state when born, they will ALL choose damnation over God. It is as if they do not understand what seems easy to us now. The part you call frogmarching is when God chooses to change the hearts of some SO THAT they can understand what is so simple to us. With that new heart they are enabled to freely choose Christ, and they DO, every time. So instead of "frogmarching", it would be more accurate to say that God does a really, really, really good job of changing hearts. In fact, God is good enough to do such a good job that He doesn't need to force anyone. Everyone coming to Christ does so freely and willingly.

Double predestination means that God chose some for Heaven and that He chose the rest for hell. So therefore nobody has any responsibility, authority, or the means to do anything other than mechanically go through a mechanical life in mechanical fashion just because.

We disagree on the extent of God's own free will. We see it as absolute, and you all see it as limited by man's (presumably superior) free will. I maintain that the freedom that your side so vigorously defends is freedom FROM and AGAINST God. For some unfathomable reason, this is prized and treasured by your side. However, in a sense it is fathomable since men are born with the natural desire to be autonomous and in full control. Certainly, many faiths have been designed AROUND that.

If God predestines someone to hell, He authors evil. Why? Evildoers go to hell. But if men who do evil only do so because they HAVE to do evil, then the responsibility for that evil falls upon their Reformed Creator.

No. You place a duty upon God to create all such that they have a "chance" to go to Heaven. Please tell me the origin of that duty that you assign. The Reformed Creator created Adam and he sinned. We blame Adam and you blame the Reformed God. After Adam, all were born with original sin. Whose fault was that? I mean, could God have just looked the other way if He wanted? We blame Adam and you blame the Reformed God. Your side puts God in a box and says that if He acts outside of the rules you have set for Him that He is the author of sin. In contrast, we believe that God makes all the rules.

If I program my desktop computer to pop up a banner glorifying myself, is the computer worshiping me? No. It has no volition because it is made to do it. If I then program my laptop to pop up a banner that indicates that it hates me, does the computer hate me? No. It has no volition. The Reformed viewpoint would then indicate that the laptop is evil and needs to be thrown into the trash while the desktop is good and needs to be kept near to my heart.

Not even close. Your position appears to be that either man has freedom on the same level as God, or he has no freedom at all. It doesn't work like that. Man was not created as machine, and man does have volition. However, it is limited and operates within the parameters that God sets. Only God has absolute freedom, as hard as that is for some to accept.

It would seem that Christ’s message, the Grace of God, and the preference of His will to save all does not resonate with the Reformed doctrine of predestination to hell.

What you're saying does not appear in scripture, so we do not accept it as Christ's message. You quoted John 3:14-17. Your interpretation of verse 17, that Jesus came to save the world, meaning to you all people, has Jesus being one of the greatest failures of any leader in history. We do not see Jesus as the failure that your side does, so we do not interpret those verses as you do. We believe Jesus accomplished exactly everything He came here to accomplish. When Jesus said "It is finished" that actually meant something.

You also quote 1 John 2:1-11. This also mentions the concept of "the world". It is the same. Either Jesus was a colossal failure or He wasn't. You are forced to admit God's failure for the sake of man's ultimate sovereignty. The rest of the passage talks about obedience, which we agree God called all of His children to perform.

Finally, you quote 1 Tim. 2:1-6, which says that God "wills everyone to be saved" in your version. Again, for the sake of man's autonomy you are forced to admit that God's will is pathetically weak and ineffectual. We don't agree with that interpretation. It appears that in Catholicism there are way too many cooks in the kitchen. This town we call the universe is simply not big enough for one omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God and the Apostolic idea of man's sovereignty. Every single theoretical elevation of man, and there are many in Apostolic theology, corresponds necessarily to a diminution of the God revealed to us in the scriptures. God knew this mindset was coming so He reminded us of how to think:

John 3:30 : He must increase, but I must decrease. KJV

In my opinion, Apostolics have this reversed.

The Reformed Creator created Adam and he sinned.

Well, according to Calvin, Adam sinned by the express will of God.

“God not only foresaw that Adam would fall, but also ordained that he should.”
(Calvin’s Inst., b. 3, c. 23, sec. 7.)

“...[Adam] fell not only by the permission, but also by the appointment, of God.”
(Calvin Responsio ad Calumnias Nebulonis cujusdam ad Articulum primum.)

“He sinned because God so ordained, because the Lord saw good.”
(Calvin’s Inst., b. 3, c. 24, sec. 8.)

That Calvin took issue with those who disagree with the above: “They deny that the Scripture says God decreed Adam’s fall. They say he might have chose either to fall or not; and that God fore-ordained only to treat him according to his desert: As if God had created the noblest of all his creatures, without fore-ordaining what should become of him!”
(Ibid., sec. 7.)

“I confess it is a horrible decree; yet no one can deny but God foreknew Adam’s fall, and therefore foreknew it, because he had ordained it so by his own decree.”
(Calv. Inst., b. 3, c. 23, sec. 7.)

“God of his own good pleasure ordains that many should be born, who are from the womb devoted to inevitable damnation. If any man pretend that God’s foreknowledge lays them under no necessity of being damned, but rather that he decreed their damnation because he foreknew their wickedness, I grant that God’s foreknowledge alone lays no necessity on the creature; but eternal life and death depend on the will rather than the foreknowledge of God. If God only foreknew all things that relate to all men, and did not decree and ordain them also, then it might be inquired whether or no his foreknowledge necessitates the thing foreknown. But seeing he therefore foreknows all things that will come to pass, because he has decreed they shall come to pass, it is vain to contend about foreknowledge, since it so plain all things come to pass by God’s positive decree.”
(Ibid., c. 23, s. 6.)

“The devil and wicked men are so held in on every side with the hand of God, that they cannot conceive, or contrive, or execute any mischief, any farther than God himself doth not permit only, but command. Nor are they only held in fetters, but compelled also, as with a bridle, to perform obedience to those commands.”
(Calv. Inst., b. 1, c. 17, s. 11.)

Mark: ***You MUST accept the Grace of God.

FK: No argument from the Reformed there. :)***

I think that there is.

I was just playfully referring to the Reformed concept of Irresistible Grace. Under that doctrine, God's saving grace is always effectual. It never goes to waste for its intended purpose.

Acceptance is something that I do, it is not an external action upon me. The Reformed position appears to be that men to be mechanically acted upon and have no choice in the matter.

My position is that when God gives saving grace He doesn't fool around. He does it so well, that the result is always the same, what He wants. It seems unacceptable to your side that God could do something that perfectly, so the idea is labeled as man being reduced to being mechanical, which we know is not the case. Therefore, God is decreased.

You are going to be judged by the Reformed God by something that Jesus did?

Yes, that is what we call justification. I am unable to earn enough merits to pay for my own sins. Jesus had to pay for me if I am going to Heaven. Glory be to God that He chose to do just that for me! :)

[Re: John 12:44-48] This would indicate that we are Judged on whether or not we accept Him.

That is correct too. It's all included. We can also find Biblical evidence that we are judged on whether or not we persevere. That is also true, and also included with what God has done for us. I just focused on the really big one, what Christ did for us on the cross. THAT is what justified His children and made them blameless before God. Everything else (e.g. faith, obedience, perseverance, prayer, Godly living, etc.) in the salvation "package" is wrapped around that.

[Re: Luke 19:11-27] The servants were rewarded for what they did or didn’t do.

Sure, and that happens all the time. In life God blesses us and gives us rewards as He sees fit. This parable just doesn't happen to have anything to do with salvation.

Now, your quoting from Matthew 25 IS about salvation, but we disagree on the interpretation. The parable of the ten virgins is about an outward exhortation to be ready when Jesus comes. Being ready means having faith. This parable warns that one must have faith when Jesus comes or it will be too late. A reasonable warning. It has nothing to do with the mechanism of faith. That is covered elsewhere.

The parable of the talents speaks of Christian service and stewardship. That is, perseverance, also a part of salvation. The servant who was turned out was a false servant, just as a false believer never had faith in the first place.

[Re: Revelation 22:12] All will be rewarded for what they did or didn’t do.

Yes, believers will. It just has nothing to do with salvation. There are separate rewards in Heaven among those who go there. Those rewards are only for the sheep that you go on to cite in Matt. 25. The goats are those to whom God did not give saving grace, so they acted according to their nature and sinned unto their own destruction. We do not blame God for that free will choice, but your side does. No one can tell me why you say God is forced to give all men saving grace. The Bible doesn't support that.

One of the differences between the Reformed and the Apostolic views is that we view God as a God of mercy and love and not as an elitist.

We see God as elite because we believe none is His equal. It is a shame that some Christian faiths do not share that view.

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