***You MUST accept the Grace of God.
No argument from the Reformed there. :)***
I think that there is. Acceptance is something that I do, it is not an external action upon me. The Reformed postion appears to be that men to be mechanically acted upon and have no choice in the matter.
***FOR SALVATION, the Reformed are going to be judged on the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross.***
You are going to be judged by the Reformed God by something that Jesus did?
If we would turn from Calvin to the Bible, we find:
John 12:
44
Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in the one who sent me,
45
and whoever sees me sees the one who sent me.
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I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness.
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And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world.
48
Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day,
This would indicate that we are Judged on whether or not we accept Him.
We may then go to Luke 19:
11
While they were listening to him speak, he proceeded to tell a parable because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the kingdom of God would appear there immediately.
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So he said, “A nobleman went off to a distant country to obtain the kingship for himself and then to return.
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He called ten of his servants and gave them ten gold coins 5 and told them, ‘Engage in trade with these until I return.’
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His fellow citizens, however, despised him and sent a delegation after him to announce, ‘We do not want this man to be our king.’
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But when he returned after obtaining the kingship, he had the servants called, to whom he had given the money, to learn what they had gained by trading.
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The first came forward and said, ‘Sir, your gold coin has earned ten additional ones.’
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He replied, ‘Well done, good servant! You have been faithful in this very small matter; take charge of ten cities.’
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Then the second came and reported, ‘Your gold coin, sir, has earned five more.’
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And to this servant too he said, ‘You, take charge of five cities.’
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Then the other servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your gold coin; I kept it stored away in a handkerchief,
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for I was afraid of you, because you are a demanding person; you take up what you did not lay down and you harvest what you did not plant.’
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He said to him, ‘With your own words I shall condemn you, you wicked servant. You knew I was a demanding person, taking up what I did not lay down and harvesting what I did not plant;
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why did you not put my money in a bank? Then on my return I would have collected it with interest.’
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And to those standing by he said, ‘Take the gold coin from him and give it to the servant who has ten.’
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But they said to him, ‘Sir, he has ten gold coins.’
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‘I tell you, to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
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Now as for those enemies of mine who did not want me as their king, bring them here and slay them before me.’”
The servants were rewarded for what they did or didn’t do.
Matt 25:
1
“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
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Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
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The foolish ones, when taking their lamps, brought no oil with them,
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but the wise brought flasks of oil with their lamps.
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Since the bridegroom was long delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
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At midnight, there was a cry, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
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Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
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The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
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But the wise ones replied, ‘No, for there may not be enough for us and you. Go instead to the merchants and buy some for yourselves.’
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While they went off to buy it, the bridegroom came and those who were ready went into the wedding feast with him. Then the door was locked.
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Afterwards the other virgins came and said, ‘Lord, Lord, open the door for us!’
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But he said in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, I do not know you.’
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Therefore, stay awake, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
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“It will be as when a man who was going on a journey called in his servants and entrusted his possessions to them.
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To one he gave five talents; 8 to another, two; to a third, one—to each according to his ability. Then he went away. Immediately
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the one who received five talents went and traded with them, and made another five.
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Likewise, the one who received two made another two.
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But the man who received one went off and dug a hole in the ground and buried his master’s money.
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After a long time the master of those servants came back and settled accounts with them.
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The one who had received five talents came forward bringing the additional five. He said, ‘Master, you gave me five talents. See, I have made five more.’
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His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’
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(Then) the one who had received two talents also came forward and said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. See, I have made two more.’
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His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’
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Then the one who had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a demanding person, harvesting where you did not plant and gathering where you did not scatter;
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so out of fear I went off and buried your talent in the ground. Here it is back.’
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His master said to him in reply, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I did not plant and gather where I did not scatter?
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Should you not then have put my money in the bank so that I could have got it back with interest on my return?
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Now then! Take the talent from him and give it to the one with ten.
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For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
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And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’
The servants were rewarded for what they did or didn’t do.
Revelation 22:
12
“Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.
All will be rewarded for what they did or didn’t do.
Matt 25:
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“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
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and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
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He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
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Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
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For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
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naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
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Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
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When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
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When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
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And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
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Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
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For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
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a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
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Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
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He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
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And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
All will be Judged according to their deeds.
One of the differences between the Reformed and the Apostolic views is that we view God as a God of mercy and love and not as an elitist.
FK: No argument from the Reformed there. :)***
I think that there is.
I was just playfully referring to the Reformed concept of Irresistible Grace. Under that doctrine, God's saving grace is always effectual. It never goes to waste for its intended purpose.
Acceptance is something that I do, it is not an external action upon me. The Reformed position appears to be that men to be mechanically acted upon and have no choice in the matter.
My position is that when God gives saving grace He doesn't fool around. He does it so well, that the result is always the same, what He wants. It seems unacceptable to your side that God could do something that perfectly, so the idea is labeled as man being reduced to being mechanical, which we know is not the case. Therefore, God is decreased.
You are going to be judged by the Reformed God by something that Jesus did?
Yes, that is what we call justification. I am unable to earn enough merits to pay for my own sins. Jesus had to pay for me if I am going to Heaven. Glory be to God that He chose to do just that for me! :)
[Re: John 12:44-48] This would indicate that we are Judged on whether or not we accept Him.
That is correct too. It's all included. We can also find Biblical evidence that we are judged on whether or not we persevere. That is also true, and also included with what God has done for us. I just focused on the really big one, what Christ did for us on the cross. THAT is what justified His children and made them blameless before God. Everything else (e.g. faith, obedience, perseverance, prayer, Godly living, etc.) in the salvation "package" is wrapped around that.
[Re: Luke 19:11-27] The servants were rewarded for what they did or didn’t do.
Sure, and that happens all the time. In life God blesses us and gives us rewards as He sees fit. This parable just doesn't happen to have anything to do with salvation.
Now, your quoting from Matthew 25 IS about salvation, but we disagree on the interpretation. The parable of the ten virgins is about an outward exhortation to be ready when Jesus comes. Being ready means having faith. This parable warns that one must have faith when Jesus comes or it will be too late. A reasonable warning. It has nothing to do with the mechanism of faith. That is covered elsewhere.
The parable of the talents speaks of Christian service and stewardship. That is, perseverance, also a part of salvation. The servant who was turned out was a false servant, just as a false believer never had faith in the first place.
[Re: Revelation 22:12] All will be rewarded for what they did or didn’t do.
Yes, believers will. It just has nothing to do with salvation. There are separate rewards in Heaven among those who go there. Those rewards are only for the sheep that you go on to cite in Matt. 25. The goats are those to whom God did not give saving grace, so they acted according to their nature and sinned unto their own destruction. We do not blame God for that free will choice, but your side does. No one can tell me why you say God is forced to give all men saving grace. The Bible doesn't support that.
One of the differences between the Reformed and the Apostolic views is that we view God as a God of mercy and love and not as an elitist.
We see God as elite because we believe none is His equal. It is a shame that some Christian faiths do not share that view.