I am your servant sir. I don't know if I can afford top end, but I hope this will do. :)
Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
***Good, I wouldn’t want to leave any out.***
But have you considered “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ”?
< ducking for cover>
I won't go into the specific verses (you know them all anyway, right?), but I will summarize most of them:
You are saved if you
That’s the one I forgot! Thanks :>)
So if you are poor, you are saved. if you are a woman and you have kids you are saved, if you say the right things you are saved. Wow, looks like everyone can come and join the party. Give away all your money and salvation is yours. Being a mommy will save you! (no wonder there are so many unmarried mommys out there)
Mr. Kosta, sir, in all kindness and out of a sense of love, I think you need to delve a little deeper into the mystery of salvation.
Unfortunately, this very flawed premise wrecks everything that follows. Archbishop Sheen doesn't seem to understand that "freedom" is in the eye of the beholder. Would Archbishop Sheen call an amoeba in a petri dish "free"? It really depends on how you look at it doesn't it? It is the same with God. Archbishop Sheen appears to make the mistake of framing the issue in terms of either having man as machine (presumably his view of Reformed theology) or man as being totally free and independent of God such that man can do anything he wants absolutely. Neither of these is the truth. God is the only Being who is free absolutely. Man has varying levels of freedom within the parameters that God sets.
No argument from the Reformed there. :)
Without responsibility, there can be no judgment. What are the Reformed going to be Judged on? Some Reformed claim that they will only be Judged on whether they were frogmarched by the Holy Spirit and the reprobate will be Judged upon not being frogmarched.
FOR SALVATION, the Reformed are going to be judged on the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross. Was what Christ did good enough to atone for all our sins? The Reformed say Yes. Others say No, Christ's sacrifice was NOT GOOD ENOUGH, more is required. That is, works of merit are required to make oneself worthy of entry into Heaven. We think that view cheapens what Christ did for us.
I am your servant sir. I don't know if I can afford top end, but I hope this will do. :)
Astounding. What are some of the many options men have for their salvation?
Broad is the way to destruction!
He is risen indeed. AMEN, Mary. It really is strongly symbolic of some of the more significant differences among the faiths. We believe that Christ's death and resurrection actually accomplished something permanent, something that matters. Christ's sacrifice was worth far more than a mere "chance" of getting into Heaven for God's children.
Are you talking about Apostolic succession, or the elect? :)
The Body of Christ, however, benefits from the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant by way of regeneration and acceptance with God (reconciliation), adoption and sonship, by virtue of that same shed Blood. This is the special connotation of “NEW TESTAMENT.”
The Body of Christ is not a subject of revelation in the Gospels, but a subject of special revelation in the Epistles of Paul.
It is correct to draw spiritual application from any place in the Scriptures, including the Gospels. But as revelation is progressive through the Scriptures, it is important not to appropriate doctrines from a previous dispensation that are peculiar to God's dealing with Israel as a nation.
Spiritual applications from the Beatitudes (Matthew chs. 5 through 7) are not only acceptable, but should not be avoided. Where specific instruction in those chapters appears to be inconsistent with the Pauline Epistles, however, one should be very careful of a dispensational change in order and instruction.
The spiritual principles of the Beatitutdes, binding on the members of the Body of Christ, are re-enunciated in the Epistles. It is not difficult to recognize them.
Well said, Forest Keeper.
The FINISHED work of Christ has paid the debt I could not pay.
The deeds done in the flesh will be judged - for sheep and goats (no “frog marching” for these animals - they do what is their nature) - and rewards and punishment (respectively) await in eternity.
And ALL people, whether in heaven rejoicing or in hell being tormented will glorify God forever and ever.
You started out correctly, than you ended up by saying God chose you as if your salvation is guaranteed
We can only HOPE to be chosen ,dear brother
We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation
From Scripturecatholic.com
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Rom. 5:5 - this “hope” does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.
Rom. 8:24 - this “hope” of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?
Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews “may be saved.” Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?
Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your “hope” (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.
2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a “hope” (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.
Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the “hope” (not the certainty) of righteousness.
Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the “hope” to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.
Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one “hope” (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that “if possible” he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and “hope” (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.
Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the “hope” (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.
Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the “hope” of the gospel which you heard.
Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the “hope” (not the certainty) of His glory.
1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of “hope” in Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our “hope” or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of “hope” (not of certainty) of salvation.
2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good “hope” through grace.
1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our “hope” (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.
1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our “hope” (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.
1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her “hope” (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.
2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they “may also obtain salvation.” This verse teaches us that even the “elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.
Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.
Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed “hope,” the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life.
Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our “hope” (not our certainty).
Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of “hope” (not certainty) until the end.
Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the “hope” (not the certainty) that is set before us.
Heb. 6:19 - we have a “hope” that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.
Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better “hope” (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our “hope” without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things “hoped” for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).
Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.
James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.
1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living “hope” through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
1 Peter 1:13 - set your “hope” (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and “hope” are in God.
1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?
1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the “hope” that is in you.
1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus “hopes” in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.
We can also fall away and lose our salvation
Jesus’ Teaching on Losing Salvation
Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.
Matt. 7:21 - all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.
Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for “therefore” is “dia toutos” which means “through this”) blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus’ grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.
Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God's banquet, but was cast out.
Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.
Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.
Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”
John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.
John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.
John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.
John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.
John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.
John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. This “drawing” is an ongoing process.
John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.
Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).
Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.
Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.
Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.
Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.
Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.
Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.
Your dispensationist views “disturb the force”. Seriously, it is not wise to present this systematic theological construct or that one TRUTH. While you may see a separate between the chosen Jews and the chosen Gentiles, I see that Christ has broken down the wall that divided us and made in Himself one people of God.
I seriously recommend this book http://tinyurl.com/3s2m58 as a thought provoking examination of one’s assumed theology.
In Christ, the middle wall of partition is truly and forever broken down. In Christ their is NEITHER Jew NOR Gentile. That is IN CHRIST, and that is the Church of God, the body of Christ.
I believe the literal promises made to Abraham and to David and to their seed will nonetheless be fulfilled literally in the future, when those in this age who are IN CHRIST are no longer in the earthly picture, and Israel’s prophetic clock begins ticking once again.
***Well, went to Disneyworld last month, going on a cruise to Alaska next month, and in between I am trying to pay for it all :>)***
Hmmm. Sounds like you’re trying to get away from it all, as well.
We went to Disneyworld last fall - rented a 15 passenger van and drove down. I found that I can make it in less than a day from eastern Iowa. And nary a speeding ticket...
Looking for a new van now - our Windstar is getting creaky and we need a bigger van for the kids. The large van market is shutting down due to gas prices and they still aren’t giving any deals on them.
***And nary a speeding ticket...***
And nary a potty break... ,8-)
We Catholic/Orthodox also have statues, stained glass and icons of the risen Christ.
Taking Christ off of every cross is a denial of the suffering and humility of Christ's sacrifice for us.
Scripture says this...
In 1 Cor 1:23 St. Paul said ... “But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness”
Seeing the Crucifix emphasizes our own sins and reminds us of His Sacrifice for that sin
It’s clear that you hold to a dispensational view. I’ve studied and sat under such for years. It’s good to read opposing views to see if you understand the issue, rather than merely believe something about it.
The book I recommended is a rational, thought provoking examination of the end times theology issue that would profit anyone who longs to understand the issue better.
I’ve come to believe that dispensationalism is second only to Arminianism in its flaws.
***Is our God a God of absolutes or of hypotheticals?***
God is. What we know of Him is what He has chosen to tell us.
***Eternal glory by merit? OK.***
The Beatitudes. The parable of the talents. We do not reverse the order of importance - without God’s Grace we absolutely cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven - that is first and foremost. But we can reject His Grace as Jesus kept telling us, and the Epistles keep telling us.
***It appears that God is leaving out somebody pretty important here. Maybe the name slipped His mind. :) I hope that I am just misunderstanding this whole thing.***
So do I. :)
***The fatal flaw in this is that it only potentially works if God created, and then turned His back completely on His creation and just watched what happened. If one believes, as I do and I “think” all Catholics do, that God is active in our world, then God is foreseeing His own actions. Therefore He is already a part of the action and CANNOT rely solely on what He foresees as the actions of others to make His predestination determinations. He’s already involved.***
Certainly He is involved and active. God so loved the world - the whole world - that He sent His Son to be crucified, killed and resurrected. Rejection of the philosophy of free will reduces Creation to a mechanical program in which God is enslaved to His own predestination.
***A perfect example of what I’m saying. This theory requires that good works are done TOTALLY APART from God. But if good works are God working through us, then the whole thing reverts back to the Reformed position on predestination. It makes no logical sense for God to predestine based on foreseen good works, IF God was involved in those good works.***
There is a huge difference between enabling and frogmarching. The Gospels keep referring to behaviour of humans in a free will sense.
***Then you don’t accept the definition of double predestination by those who believe in it. You redefine it and disagree with THAT. This has nothing to do with us. Double predestination means that God in His sovereignty infallibly predestined some to glory by giving them saving grace. By logical extension, it also means that God did not predestine others to eternal glory because He did not give them saving grace. That’s pretty much it. Where is God authoring evil in any of this? ***
That is quibbling, sir. Double predestination means that God chose some for Heaven and that He chose the rest for hell. So therefore nobody has any responsibility, authority, or the means to do anything other than mechanically go through a mechanical life in mechanical fashion just because.
***Where is God authoring evil in any of this? Do you hypothetically call God evil for choosing not to give someone saving grace? If so, on what basis? God DOES give SOME grace (or blessings) to all men, but not saving grace.***
If God predestines someone to hell, He authors evil. Why? Evildoers go to hell. But if men who do evil only do so because they HAVE to do evil, then the responsibility for that evil falls upon their Reformed Creator.
If I program my desktop computer to pop up a banner glorifying myself, is the computer worshipping me? No. It has no volition because it is made to do it. If I then program my laptop to pop up a banner that indicates that it hates me, does the computer hate me? No. It has no volition.
The Reformed viewpoint would then indicate that the laptop is evil and needs to be thrown into the trash while the desktop is good and needs to be kept near to my heart.
If God gives His Grace to the whole world, it is then up to each individual in the world to decide what to do with it.
John 3:
And just as Moses lifted up 5 the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15
so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”
16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
1 John 2:
1
My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.
2
He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.
3
The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his command ments.
4
Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5
But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him:
6
whoever claims to abide in him ought to live (just) as he lived.
7
Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
8
And yet I do write a new commandment to you, which holds true in him and among you, for the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.
9
Whoever says he is in the light, yet hates his brother, is still in the darkness.
10
Whoever loves his brother remains in the light, and there is nothing in him to cause a fall.
11
Whoever hates his brother is in darkness; he walks in darkness and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
1 Tim 2:
1
First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,
2
for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
3
This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4
who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
5
For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human,
6
who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time.
It would seem that Christ’s message, the Grace of God, and the preference of His will to save all does not resonate with the Reformed doctrine of predestination to hell.
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