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To: stfassisi; kosta50; MarkBsnr; irishtenor
From the Blessed Archbishop Fulton Sheen...... “The choice before God in creating the world lay between creating a purely mechanical universe, peopled by mere automatons, or creating a spiritual universe in which there would be a choice of good and evil.

Unfortunately, this very flawed premise wrecks everything that follows. Archbishop Sheen doesn't seem to understand that "freedom" is in the eye of the beholder. Would Archbishop Sheen call an amoeba in a petri dish "free"? It really depends on how you look at it doesn't it? It is the same with God. Archbishop Sheen appears to make the mistake of framing the issue in terms of either having man as machine (presumably his view of Reformed theology) or man as being totally free and independent of God such that man can do anything he wants absolutely. Neither of these is the truth. God is the only Being who is free absolutely. Man has varying levels of freedom within the parameters that God sets.

5,945 posted on 05/29/2008 11:12:46 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper

***Would Archbishop Sheen call an amoeba in a petri dish “free”? It really depends on how you look at it doesn’t it? It is the same with God. Archbishop Sheen appears to make the mistake of framing the issue in terms of either having man as machine (presumably his view of Reformed theology) or man as being totally free and independent of God such that man can do anything he wants absolutely. Neither of these is the truth. God is the only Being who is free absolutely. Man has varying levels of freedom within the parameters that God sets.***

Either man is free to sin or he is not. We are not quibbling about whether men can grow wings and fly, we are discussing about sin and death (the reward of unforgiven and unrepentent sin) versus eternal salvation from God.

Either God wills that all men be saved or He does not. If He does not, then the verses which explicitly say that He does are wrong (see posting above).


5,961 posted on 05/30/2008 6:54:29 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; MarkBsnr
“”Would Archbishop Sheen call an amoeba in a petri dish “free”? It really depends on how you look at it doesn't it?””

You're forgetting that God gave man power to rule over moving things and animals. It is the freedom of Man who took the freedom away from the amoeba by putting it in a petri dish and enslaving it outside of its enviornment.

From the Scriptures

“And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.”
Genesis 1:26

Thou hast made him a little less than the angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honour: And hast set him over the works of thy hands. Thou hast subjected all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen: moreover the beasts also of the fields. The birds of the air, and the fishes of the sea, that pass through the paths of the sea. O Lord our Lord, how admirable is thy name in all the earth! Pslams 8:6-10

FK-””Man has varying levels of freedom within the parameters that God sets.””

Perhaps you can explain what these levels are?

Man certainly has freedom to enslave himself by cursing God,committing adultery ,aborting babies etc....

Can you name some things that man is NOT free to do within the bounds of physical laws of nature?

“Freedom that ignores the transcendent difference between good and evil ends in the denial of freedom itself.”
-Fulton J. Sheen

5,971 posted on 05/30/2008 12:58:03 PM PDT by stfassisi ( ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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