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To: Forest Keeper

***Would Archbishop Sheen call an amoeba in a petri dish “free”? It really depends on how you look at it doesn’t it? It is the same with God. Archbishop Sheen appears to make the mistake of framing the issue in terms of either having man as machine (presumably his view of Reformed theology) or man as being totally free and independent of God such that man can do anything he wants absolutely. Neither of these is the truth. God is the only Being who is free absolutely. Man has varying levels of freedom within the parameters that God sets.***

Either man is free to sin or he is not. We are not quibbling about whether men can grow wings and fly, we are discussing about sin and death (the reward of unforgiven and unrepentent sin) versus eternal salvation from God.

Either God wills that all men be saved or He does not. If He does not, then the verses which explicitly say that He does are wrong (see posting above).


5,961 posted on 05/30/2008 6:54:29 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; stfassisi; kosta50; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg
Either man is free to sin or he is not.

No, that's too narrow. You could say that man is free to sin to the extent it does not thwart God's will. I would agree to that, whether committed by the saved or lost. For example, if God has a specific plan for me to accomplish His will tomorrow, then no one is "free" to murder me as I type this. Naturally, I really really hope that God has a specific plan for me tomorrow. :)

Either God wills that all men be saved or He does not. If He does not, then the verses which explicitly say that He does are wrong (see posting above).

He does not so will, or else it would be done. The verses you quoted are not wrong at all, they are just misinterpreted. What is one foundation that we start with? That God is all powerful. The Bible is clear over and over again that our God is all powerful. Yet, the verses you quote, read in your way, have God being pathetically weak. Should we reconsider whether God is all powerful or should we reconsider whether God actually wanted all men to be saved? The answer is easy for me because the former goes to God's very essence. The latter goes to His choices. I can live with being wrong about God's choices from time to time, but if I don't have a basic understanding of His essence then I think I'm in trouble because everything would fall apart from there.

5,976 posted on 05/30/2008 5:20:25 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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