Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
LOL! That's a good example.
If the Gospel we preach and by which we are saved now of necessity includes the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-4), then the Gospel that the Twelve and the Seventy were commissioned to preach during Christ's earthly ministry (Matthew 10; Luke 9, 10) had to be a different message, because they did not understand the sufferings of Christ.
Yes, that makes sense. However, while that message may not have been as developed as the one we have today, I would doubt that it contained error. (I know you didn't say that.)
“And, the Church never elevates itself above the Scriptures because the Scriptures are what the Church agreed was what was believed.”
Indeed not, but that said, one should never forget that the canon of the NT (and as read the OT too for that matter) is a creation of The Church, and that Church believed an taught then what Orthodoxy teaches today.
I would rather say that the NT, as well as the OT, were given to the church by the Holy Spirit, not a “creation” of the church.
“I would rather say that the NT, as well as the OT, were given to the church by the Holy Spirit, not a “creation” of the church.”
I don’t doubt for a moment that The Church finalized the canon under the inspiration of the HS, but I do not believe for one moment that the bishops who in council over the centuries arrived a consensus of what was “in” and what was “out” were some sort of spiritual automotons and certainly the records of the proceedings of the councils in which these decisions were made indicate a good deal of “horse trading” going on and more importantly a measuring of the authenticity of the teachings of various contending writings for inclusion in the canon against “what the Church always and everywhere believed.” Those beliefs are found in their nearest form today in Orthodoxy.
I do not mean to imply that a person could not contend that the NT may not in point of spiritual fact mean in places something entirely different from what those old Greek bishops thought it meant (the Real Presence in the Eucharist for example)but it does seem to me that if one professes to be a Christian and rejects the teachings of Rome and especially of Orthodoxy, one must be prepared to say that the Greek bishops and The Church at the time the canon was determined, were simply wrong and that it is indeed either a “divine coincidence” that men wallowing in error got the canon right or that they were used by the HS to keep Christianity on life support until the Reformers arrived in West/Central Europe more than 1000 years later to finally get it right...or both.
I, of course, don’t believe that for a moment.
***God was not behind any of this,...***
When all else fails, actually consulting the Bible helps. The LORD himself pronounced the curse:
So the LORD God said,... you are cursed..... I will put enmity between you and the woman,.... I will greatly multiply your sorrow.... Cursed is the ground for your sake;....
If you want to pretend that the LORD did not curse creation, then you are free to do it. Unfortunately, you stand AGAINST the Bible and the Lord’s Church. Do you honestly think that puny little man could somehow curse all of Creation, the visible portion of which is now somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-14 BILLION light years across and growing?
***Then read Gen 6:6. Why was He “sorry?” Because things were going His way?***
Again, if you want to believe that the creation was cursed against God’s will, then you are free to believe it if you want. Since it is clear that the LORD spoke the curse do you think Satan or Adam was holding the “gun” to God’s head? Do you really think an anthropomorphism means that somehow God’s purposes and plans have been defeated by man?
No wonder many Atheists think our view of God is pathetic.
***The plain truth is that all the saints “go on sinning” every day. It was this FACT which prompted Paul to cry out “who will deliver me from this body of death” ~ L_C
And the answer is: repentance. ~ kosta***
So, the answer for redemption is what man can do for himself. You prove so aptly that there are only two religions in the Christian faith:
There is the religion of free grace and there is the religion which says if you ____________ then you may have redemption. We, of the Reformation, preach a salvation by grace. You preach a salvation by what you do.
***I can say that justification is not what Christ’s work is all about.***
Really!!! Too bad that is 100% against the Bible:
Romans 5:18
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
My Bible speaks about the work of Christ resulting in JUSTIFICATION.
***And when we no longer sin, God no longer curses the ground for our sake, but blesses it. Just as sin corrupts, theosis (our obedience to God) restores.***
YOUR obedience....
The Reformation calls this WORKS based salvation.
The Bible calls this WORKS based salvation.
You are free to think that somehow your obedience merits something. However, I must advise you that the ONLY obedience which has ANY value is Christ’s obedience. He was the only one to perfectly obey the Law. Unless you cling to that, you introduce your own works to the perfection of Christ. You are free, of course, to believe that your repentence and obedience somehow causes your justification instead of springing out of your justification. I’ll stand on a more stable ROCK. My obedience is no better than Adam’s and I have NO illusion that I can NO LONGER sin (See 1 John).
Romans 5:19
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Christ was delivered up because of our offenses.
Christ was raised because of our justification.
Perfected FOREVER; Sanctification ongoing. Thankfully,
LC
***I don’t doubt for a moment that The Church finalized the canon under the inspiration of the HS. ***
Good, we agree on that. My concern is that when you say “created” it means a man made cannon. In other words, a story, uninspired, like the stories I write. Fiction, in other words. If what is in the book is not directed, inspired, created, protected by God, it is a work of fiction created by man. Do you see my point?
I will grant that the church has compiled, collated, collected, (insert any other “C” words here )the books of the Bible under the direction of the Holy Spirit who works in man. Can we agree on that?
“Can we agree on that?”
Yes, we can. I do think, however, that the process the bishops went through in compiling, collating and collecting is very important to an understanding of the result. That’s why I said that they were not automotons. That, in a nutshell, is what Mohammad claimed for himself, and his devotees do the very same to this day. The result is a book which the dark souls of Mohammedanism hold to be sacred in and of itself, by that I mean the bindings and pages themselves, because it is the EXACT word of the demon to whom they gave as a name the Arabic word for God, Allah, as opposed to the divinely inspired writings of holy men which we, as The Church always has, hold the bible to be.
See, discussion and conversation is much better than namecalling and guttersniping :>)
I also agree that the process was not simple, and a lot of human desires and thoughts had to be filtered. God uses man to accomplish his will, and when man is attuned to God, God's will triumphs over everything.
By the way, you and I have had some very good discussions, and neither one of us has had to resort to unGodly actions. I find you to be very intelligent and informed, and have learned a lot about your view of things. (I wish I spoke and read Greek, like you.) I still disagree on some things, but I do believe that you and I can discuss the differences in heaven.
“I also agree that the process was not simple, and a lot of human desires and thoughts had to be filtered.”
And a lot of what passed not merely for inspirational writings, but indeed among some for scripture itself had to be filtered through the “Orthodoxia”, the “right” or “correct” praise of The Church which represented what Christians then believed.
“God uses man to accomplish his will, and when man is attuned to God, God’s will triumphs over everything.”
When human beings die to the self so that the “eye” of the soul, what we call the “nous”, is focused on Christ and not on ourselves, then we have no desires of our own but rather our will has been replaced by God’s will and we are in a state of theosis.
“I find you to be very intelligent and informed, and have learned a lot about your view of things.”
Thank-you for the kind words.
“(I wish I spoke and read Greek, like you.)”
Its actually a very easy language. Try to learn it. In your line, it will come in handy to say the least! :)
“I still disagree on some things, but I do believe that you and I can discuss the differences in heaven.”
Of course you do and can! As for our discussions in heaven, well, perhaps. Personally, I suspect we will be far too absorbed contemplating the Uncreated Light of God to be talking with each other, our own undoubted “brilliance” to the contrary notwithstanding!
Here is a good explanation of our view.I doubt the Orthodox have much problem with it?
Justification(from the Most Theological Collection)
By justification we become sharers in the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), which is the case since we are “God's children now:” (1 Jn. 3:2). Children partake of the nature of their Father. He has already given us the first payment or pledge, the Spirit, in our hearts (2 Cor 1:22). It is only because the veil of flesh is still with us that we cannot directly see Him, as we shall when it is removed, so that we see Him face to face 1 Cor 13:12). But now we are temples of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us (1 Cor 3:16 and 6:19). Even our bodies can be called a temple of the Spirit (1 Cor 6:19 again) though the full effect of it is to come in the future (Rom 8:19). The Spirit within us is transforming us to be a new creation (2 Cor 5:17; Gal 6:15) so that in the next life we shall see Him “face to face” (1 Cor 13:12). That means see Him directly. But when I see a human directly I do not take him into my mind, I take in an image. However in seeing God face to face, there can be no image, for images are finite; He is infinite. So He joins Himself directly to the soul or intellect, without even an image in between. Hence the need of real purity, for as Mal 23:2 says: “Who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire”.
Contrast this with being total corruption- which logically leads to what the Missouri Synod of Lutherans feared to face (Brief Doctrinal Position, 1932, #14. ) saying “As to the question why not all men are converted and saved, seeing that God's grace is universal and all men are equally and utterly corrupt, we confess that we cannot answer it.” They could have answered, from Luther's works, but refused to answer, for they saw it meant absolute blind predestination: if all are equally corrupt, there is nothing on which God could base a decision on who is saved, who is damned. But Luther Himself was not so reticent. He said (Bondage of the Will tr. J. Packer and O. Johnston, Revell, 1957, p. 273) a human has no free will and is like a horse. Either God or the devil will ride him - and so he does good or evil - but he has no choice who rides. Hence it is heaven or hell, without any choice on his part. (ibid. pp. 103-04).
Good Night
I wish you a Blessed Evening!
He said that to the serpent. Strange, however, given that it was an animal and not human, that God would hold the serpent morally accountable.
He cursed the ground for Adam's sake because Adam did not repent. God cannot bless our sins. When we sin, it is a curse, not a blessing.
Unfortunately, you stand AGAINST the Bible and the Lord’s Church
And you stand for what? "Official truth?"
Do you honestly think that puny little man could somehow curse all of Creation
Yes, we keep on polluting and abusing the creation around us and our freedom through sin. I never said all of creation. Only that part where can exercise our sinful will.
Apostle Paul (Rom 8:22) and many a Church Father said that the whole creation groaned under sin, but I don't think they were thinking of the whole universe.
Kosta: Then read Gen 6:6. Why was He “sorry?” Because things were going His way?
LC: Again, if you want to believe that the creation was cursed against God’s will, then you are free to believe it if you want
Of course, you didn't answer my question. because the verse is clear that God "repented" ("regretted") having made man. WHY would he regret anything that was His plan and doing all along?
Since it is clear that the LORD spoke the curse do you think Satan or Adam was holding the “gun” to God’s head?
I have no idea what you are talking about. First of all, it wasn't "Satan" but a serpent, a crafty animal.
Second, in Gen 6;6 God expresses regret for having created man, because man turned out to be so wicked. Obviously man had something to do with that, not God.
Do you really think an anthropomorphism means that somehow God’s purposes and plans have been defeated by man?
The only human who defeated God was Jacob /sar/. Man can only defeat himself.
So, the answer for redemption is what man can do for himself
Redemption, like ransom, are in the New Testament. Perhaps your Reformed random verse generator skips those words, I don't know, but you seem to be oblivious to them.
We, of the Reformation, preach a salvation by grace. You preach a salvation by what you do
I don't preach anything. God does all the saving. But the Bible is clear that those who do not repent are not pardoned.
My Bible speaks about the work of Christ resulting in JUSTIFICATION
Is Paul the Bible?
even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life
Christ offered Himself as payment (ransom) for our freedom (grace, so that we may choose life. The OT tells us to do so (Deut 30:19, 2 Kin 18:32). Christ made it possible (again).
YOUR obedience....
Correct. It is OUR disobedience as much as it is our obedience. We choose to sin or not to sin. Adam chose to sin and so do we. Adam could have said no. And so can we.
My obedience is no better than Adam’s and I have NO illusion that I can NO LONGER sin (See 1 John).
I agree, but we must honestly try even if we honestly fail. And when we fail, again and again, we ask for forgiveness and try again not to sin. That's called humility, a word unknown to the Reformed crowd.
Yes, the scripture that was 'canonized' (there really never was a Church-wide canonization, if you think about it) in praxis was based on what was believed then, and what is practiced and believed today.
I was simply stating that the Church cannot elevate itself above its own beliefs. So, charges that the Church holds itself "higher" than the scriptures is an oxyomoron.
******************
Right. The message the Apostles and the Seventy preach was the correct message; nothing at all erroneous. It was the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven — that the KING was now present and that His Kingdom was “at hand.” It was the message of the “consolation” of Israel that was long-awaited by many in Jerusalem (Simeon, Anna, likely Mary and Joseph, and Elisabeth, and Andrew, etc. etc. etc.)
They were awaiting and expecting the long-prophesied DAVIDIC Kingdom with Messiah reigning on earth. This was STILL the burden of the message AFTER the Resurrection of Christ and His Ascension. You will find it throughout Acts chs. 2, 3, 6, 7.
STA, we may never become sharers of the divine nature lest we become divine. We can become like God through grace but never through nature (essence).
This is one of those theological divides between us, in addition to the concept of the "created" grace, that will be difficult to bridge.
The orthodox cocnept of "justification" is like night and day from that of the West. Priest Seraphim Johnson of Orthodox.info states
To the Eastern Orthodox, the juridical western concept of "justification" is alien. We are restored to our intended (correct) state, which is what God intended man to be: rational and virtuous being, i.e. in the image of God. That rational and virtuous being is not made Christ-like (restored to likeness to God) by faith alone, but by virtuous "fruits" (qualities, acts) by imitating Christ.
The Beatitudes in Matthew 5 specify what those virtues are, and there is not a shred of requirement for any faith in them!
Other than that, I don't see much to disagree with in that article; I just don't fully grasp what that 'justification' is. The way +Paul talks about it, it is sounds as being made "just" (innocent, not guilty) in the eyes of God."
"if all are equally corrupt, there is nothing on which God could base a decision on who is saved, who is damned."
The Bible clearly states that Job was a "perfect" man [in God's eyes], so it is clear that not all are equally corrupt.
But Luther Himself was not so reticent. He said (Bondage of the Will tr. J. Packer and O. Johnston, Revell, 1957, p. 273) a human has no free will and is like a horse. Either God or the devil will ride him - and so he does good or evil - but he has no choice who rides. Hence it is heaven or hell, without any choice on his part. (ibid. pp. 103-04).
But the Reformed will tell you that the devil is under God's control and when the devil rides someone it's because God decided that. Yet they will deny that God has anything to do with us committing sin. We are horses who have no will of our own, yet somehow we are "responsible" for our sins.
Then you disobey Christ.
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." -- Mark 16:15
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. " -- Luke 9:59-60"And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Jesus did not mislead anyone. The idea that the anointed one was divine was alien even to the Apostles. It is clear from the Gospels that they did not fully and consistently believe Him, and did not become full converts until after the Pentecost.
Under your scenario He sure DID mislead. You have Jesus condoning the false beliefs of the Apostles, if everything you say is right. Jesus said words that were literally true, yet you say that the Apostles gravely misunderstood Him. Obviously Jesus would have known that, and yet Jesus did NOTHING to correct this grievous error (that HE furthered by assenting to it). I don't see how that is possible, but it certainly IS misleading.
“I was simply stating that the Church cannot elevate itself above its own beliefs. So, charges that the Church holds itself “higher” than the scriptures is an oxyomoron.”
I understood. I simply wanted to flesh out your comment in light of what seems to me to be a disturbing level of bibliolatry on the one hand and a certain deficit in knowledge of the history of scripture on the other which shows up on occasion around here among some.
***Of course God planned the Flood, He said so in no uncertain terms and planned for its aftermath. He fully intended to and did wipe out everything except for what He put on the ark. Mark, as a Catholic, how would you and/or the Latin Church answer this?***
Interesting. New Advent says this:
The Book of Genesis gives the following brief account of the Deluge: God sees the wickedness of men, and determines to destroy them excepting Noah and his family (vi, 1-8). He reveals his decree to Noah and instructs him how he may save himself and the seed of all animal life by means of an ark to be built according to certain dimensions (vi, 9-22). Seven days before the Flood, God commands the patriarch to enter the ark (vii, 1-5). Noah completes his entrance into the ark on the very day on which the Flood begins; the rain falls for forty days and nights; all living things outside the ark are destroyed; the waters prevail upon the earth a hundred and fifty days (vii, 6-24). The waters decrease, the earth dries up; Noah ascertains its condition by means of a raven and a dove sent out from the ark (viii, 1-14). Noah obeys the Divine command to leave the ark, builds an altar, offers sacrifice, makes a covenant with God, and begins to be a husbandman (ix, 1-27).
So what we have is that God caused the flood to happen in response to man’s wickedness. God also condemned Sodom and Gemorrah in response to their wickedness. God caused the multiplication of languages at the Tower of Babel in response to their wickedness.
***And, none of us knows who the whole group of the elect are, but we CAN know about our individual selves. ***
Can or do? How is that knowledge experienced?
*** It is certain that not all who profess to being Bible-believing Christians are of the elect. ***
This does not jive. How can you believe in God if you are not hijacked by the Reformed Holy Spirit? Does the Reformed Holy Spirit then give the grace to believe in God to some that are then condemned to hell? Am I misunderstanding or is Reformed belief a tad inconsistent?
***The elect are predestined to be saved (remember the different uses of the word “saved” within time?) which IS AS GOOD AS BEING saved.***
Whee. What does this really mean?
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