Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

email from Randall Easter | 25 January 2008 | Randall Easter

[Manfred the Wonder Dawg]

January 25, 2008

ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.

My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.

I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.

It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.

I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.

Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."

[kosta50]

If God does not determine these things, then who or what do you say does?

Does God cause your foot to itch? Does He make you think bad thoughts too? Your eye color is a product of your ancestral DNA based on simple Mendelian genetics. I don't think it matters one bit what color your eyes or skin or hair are; none of them makes you Christ-like.

The Creation is goverened by natural laws, and your eye color is a product of them.

I can assure you that Southern Baptists do not teach that satan buried fake . However, neither do Southern Baptists accept classic Darwinism

What exactly do Southern Baptists say aout dinosaur bones?

Many scientists throughout time thought that in their day they had figured out "the truth".

Charlatans maybe, but true scientists would never claim to know the truth. They only have working models.

How many of them were right by today's standards?

Roman aqueducts still work to this day, and Ptolemaic navigatinal system is still applciable even though it is not based on the heliocentric system.

How many of them will still be right 500 years from now? Man LOVES to fancy himself as having figured everything out.

All of them that work today should still work 500 years from now (provided the earth doesn't undergo radical climactic or cosmic changes).

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The Creation is goverened by natural laws, and your eye color is a product of them.

So you've aligned yourself with the evolutionists, eh, and the god of random selection?

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:17

---

"Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself

That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;

That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers" -- Isaiah 44:24-26

[Forest Keeper]

The Jews expected a strong, militant, human king as their messiah based on their reading of the OT, so they were dead wrong vis-a-vis Christ. The OT is more like "breaking news" then the full story. It's incomplete.

You are equating what many Jews THOUGHT with what the OT actually SAYS. Yet, at the same time you do not equate what heretics think with what the NT actually SAYS. Why is that? Many Jews were just plain wrong. Humans do that. That is no reflection on the truth of what the OT teaches.

Heretics, by definition, teach that which the Church doesn't teach, never taught and never will teach.

Then why don't you just declare these Jews you are talking about to be heretics instead of using them to discredit God's word in the OT?

The Church teaches that +John the Baptist is not Elijah.

The Church is correct, and so is Matthew, properly interpreted.

I am sure you will come up with some convoluted "explanation" to this clear-cut contradiction, but then that's how every sect and cult can quote scriptures and be "right."

Well, I wouldn't want to be like a cult member, so I'll pass. :)

Jesus would have you follow His examples, FK. Unless you have an authenticated direct connection to Him and receive His text messages every day, it's you making up what Jesus would have you do (based on those inner "voices" that could be anything, including insanity).

David, Joshua, and others DID have a direct connection to Him and did what Jesus would not have done. But I guess you throw all that out since it's OT. Since you only accept selected portions of the Gospels I guess there's not much to compare. :)

I have news for you: Christ, as we know Him in the catholic and apostolic Church, would never tell [some woman who killed her 5 children] to do that! In fact, 'what Christ would have ME do' is a dangerous belief that opens oneself to all sorts of satanic attacks because, as the Bible says which you believe to be true, even Satan can appear as the Angel of Light. Stick to the Gospels, imitating Christ, and you will never believe God wants you to kill anyone.

What this tells me is that you are closed to receiving God's personal leading for fear that it might be satan instead, etc. That is an unfortunate loss. I depend on God leading me personally. The Holy Spirit has made a big difference in my life. I am sorry He has (apparently) not for you.

P.S. - God has apparently issued a moratorium on ordering any of us to kill anyone. Therefore, I'm not looking for it. :)

I never said that faith is baseless. Every belief, no matter how extreme or weird is based on something, whether that something is objective or subjective.

That's true, you have never said that, but I have inferred it from the totality of your statements. Therefore, and SPECIFICALLY, on what do you base your faith? And, if appropriate, how would you distinguish it from the proverbial "thin air" (which is what I call "baseless")?

You are confusing confidence of salvation with faith. Because they tell you that they don't know if they will be saved (neither do you, because no one knows if he is elect or not), you believe that their faith is "weak." That is patently false.

It is not their belief itself that I say is weak, but rather what that belief is IN that is weak, i.e. a weak God. A weak God can't give assurance because who winds up saved is beyond His control. I know perfectly well that I happen to be of the elect, through no merit of my own, because I have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. Others may not believe me, but I don't need them to. God knows what God knows, and I know what God tells me through scripture and on my heart.

Your side, unfortunately, believes that just because you "accept" Christ you are saved no matter what you do or how Christ-like you are.

My side has NEVER claimed that, it is only your side that does.

[Quix]

Thanks for the ping.

[kosta50]

So you've aligned yourself with the evolutionists, eh, and the god of random selection...1 Cor 4:17...Isa Isaiah 44:24-26

And you have aligned yourself with the ancient belief that the male "seed" contains a fully formed homunculus? Why, that's truly a flat earth kind of thinking. I can understand that +Paul might have believed that (it was a contemporary belief of his time), but you, oh that's scary!

Why not ask pertinent questions before running that random verse generator? Such as: what does eye color, skin color, color of your hair, or your height have to do with your salvation? I will ask again: does God cause your foot to itch? Does He make you think bad thoughts too?

[kosta50]

You are equating what many Jews THOUGHT with what the OT actually SAYS. Yet, at the same time you do not equate what heretics think with what the NT actually SAYS

Not really, FK. Does Jesus not say "the Father is greater than I" [Jn 14:28]? Arians and Gnostics must love that verse. The NT also says that God [sic] raised Christ on at least 15 occasions. Ebionites and Jehova's Witnesses must love those verses because they deny Christ's divinity.

Then why don't you just declare these Jews you are talking about to be heretics instead of using them to discredit God's word in the OT?

The Jews are not Christians. They reject Christ. The OT is what it is: foreshadowing of Christianity. It is not Christianity. Without the OT, you would still have Christianity if all you had were the NT. Without the NT you wold never come to Christianity. The two Testaments are not equivalent, and the NT without the Gospels would be meaningless.

David, Joshua, and others DID have a direct connection to Him and did what Jesus would not have done.

David, Joshua, and others DID have a direct connection to Him and did what Jesus would not have done. But I guess you throw all that out since it's OT

No, FK, it's what the OT says God did, such as kill David's child. Now we have God doing what Jesus would not have done! Obviously, the authors of the OT did not see Christ in their visions; they saw something closer to Zeus or Allah. That connection wasn't completely noise-free.

Therefore, and SPECIFICALLY, on what do you base your faith? And, if appropriate, how would you distinguish it from the proverbial "thin air" (which is what I call "baseless")?

FK, something caused all this to exist. That something had to pre-exist all this. We really have no way of knowing what that "something" is, but some call it "God." Since we cannot prove that it is God, one must simply choose to believe that it is. It's not baseless. But it's a leap no matter which choice you take.

I know perfectly well that I happen to be of the elect, through no merit of my own, because I have been sealed with the Holy Spirit.

I don't mean to make any direct comparison or suggest similitude, but this is the same argument the leader of this new apocalyptic cult recently arrested might have used to "prove" that he is the messiah, which he claims he is. What's even more important, he

[kosta50]

I was responding that I know it can't be a delusion because I have evidence, etc.

But phyisical resmeblence is no proof. I know a couple who married for the second time, one of whom had a 4-year-old daughter and people, not knowing this, would find defnite "resmeblence" of the new husband in that child! Pictures are also no proof. If you are adopted as an infant, you will have infant pictures with your adopted parents. So, evidence can be misleading too.

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "It does not do so, per the passage, through works. Rather, it does so through faith ......... alone."

The scripture doesn't say that. It says that grace doesn't come from works of man, but then it says that grace produces both faith and works.

Once again:

Eph 2:8-9 : 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I don't see how you can miss the plain statement the verse makes: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith". Then, just to be even more clear, it specifies that this is NOT by works, i.e., it is not by works you have been saved. Your statement skips this part.

[annalex]

We are saved by Grace. True Catholic statement.

We are saved through faith. True Catholic statement.

Grace is not of our works but a gift of God. True Catholic statement.

We should walk in good works. True Catholic statement.

We are saved through faith alone. Conterscriptural heresy.

What part of Eph 2:8-9 did I skip, and why did you skip Eph 2:10?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

what does eye color, skin color, color of your hair, or your height have to do with your salvation?

I never said our eye, hair or skin color has anything to do with our salvation. Those things only have to do with how God made us. Our eye color or skin color does not determine our salvation. Our spiritual standing with God determines that -- whether He has chosen to cover our sins by the blood of Christ or not.

does God cause your foot to itch? Does He make you think bad thoughts too?

God's already given the answer to that question, Kosta, in 1 Corinthians 4:7 and many other places in Scripture. God is the first cause of all things.

If you don't understand the Scriptures, it's certainly not my job to give you new eyes or new ears. Pray for discernment.

[Forest Keeper]

Heb 11:5 is not making references to the OT; it is rewording the OT, and creating something the OT never said.

What does it matter if it is making reference to a specific scripture in the OT or not? Regardless, it is a standalone statement. It is scripture, and it is plain and easy to understand. So, I believe it.

[kosta50]

I never said our eye, hair or skin color has anything to do with our salvation

Then why would God have anything to do with them?

Our spiritual standing with God determines that

In your Reformed theology, our spiritual standing has nothing to do with our salvation either. God either "saved" you before you even existed or He damned you.

Your "spiritual standing" is only a reflection of an already accomplished fact (according to the Reformed theology) and you had absolutely nothing to do with it, so it is not your spiritual standing.

The Reformed theology (if we can even call it that!) sees each human being as a puppet and God as the puppet master. We are brainless, mindless, emotionless, eyeless, earless, empty rag dolls that respond only to God pulling our strings and telling us what to do, think, feel and want.

Kosta: does God cause your foot to itch? Does He make you think bad thoughts too?

Dr. E: God is the first cause of all things

So, in this Reformed "theology" God gives you bad thoughts? Does He make you sin too? Does He make your foot itch just to see you scratch it? Is that the purpose?

Or when people get sick. Does God make people sick? One out of four or five pregnancies end up in spontaneous abortion. Is that God "changing" His mind?

If you don't understand the Scriptures, it's certainly not my job to give you new eyes or new ears

The sentiment is the same in reverse. So, when you say that "God made us" what exactly do you mean? Is God's hand involved in the very mechanics of conception? And does He create a soul at that moment or does He pull the pre-fabricated soul form His (Heaven/Hell) shelf?

Certainly, then, the Reformed must believe the souls are pre-fabricated (which is a pagan, Jewish, and Gnostic belief). If +Paul believed that too, then we know where that came from. But that's not what the Church ever taught.

[kosta50]

What does it matter if it is making reference to a specific scripture in the OT or not?

Because the other scriptures say something else about Enoch, i.e. he "was no more." It is the non-scriputre (Talmud) that says he never died.

It is scripture, and it is plain and easy to understand. So, I believe it.

Good for you. Jude also quotes the Book of Enoch as scripture. Does that mean you consider the Book of Enoch scripture too?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

"I" don't say God made us, Kosta, God said it.

I believe it.

In your Reformed theology, our spiritual standing has nothing to do with our salvation either.

In Reformed theology, as Scripture tells us, our "spiritual standing" is a result of our salvation by Christ, not the cause of it.

Somehow you believe you earn your salvation by your actions, while Bible-believing Christians know that salvation is by unmerited grace through faith in Christ.

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." -- Romans 4:4-5

Faith, like all good things, is a gift from God. Saved by grace through faith in Christ.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" -- Titus 3:5

And now I fully expect you to rebute the word of God by saying Paul was a gnostic and why should you believe Paul?

And all I can say to that is --

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -- John 10:26-29

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "A priori" is deductive, so from what are you deducing your belief?

Personal preference. "Makes sense," as you'd say. It's more like a matter of taste.

Fair enough. I just don't think that personal preference constitutes a "base" from which to witness, hence my comment. I cannot tell you with any credibility that you should always order my favorite pizza toppings simply because I like them. :)

FK: "The reason I say that your faith is "baseless" is that you admit that it is blind."

Of course it's blind; faith requires that leap of faith in order to exist.

In that case you cannot believe that true faith is a gift from God. With the gift, no leap is necessary. All of our questions, for which we need answers, are answered in scriptures. Faith a la carte is not the Biblical way.

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "IF you believe in an all-powerful God, then how can you say He loves everyone equally, if something as important as Heaven vs. hell for eternity is largely decided by luck? You can't."

And if you believe in a transcendent God then why does it matter if it took 2,000 years; His salvation should be timeless. And if you believe in predestination and God's plan then it must have been planned to take this long...

His salvation IS timeless and everything HAS gone according to plan. But what I'm saying is that the facts on the ground DO match the Reformed view, but they do not match the Apostolic view. We DO NOT say that God loves everyone equally. He chose from among all the people who would be saved and who would not be. However, if God loves everyone equally, then the facts on the ground do not match. The Church has never come close to reaching everyone, thus giving everyone a "fair" chance. Plus, if you see luck and environment as strong determining factors, then that would also seem to violate the "fairness" that Apostolics claim God's system employs.

After all, isn't it the Evangelicals who love Israel because they expect the Jews to convert to Christ? Are your pastors trying to evangelize the Jews and Arabs? I think they are a lot closer to Christ, being Abrahamic, then the Chinese.

I know we are trying to reach Arabs in the countries we can get into, meaning not countries like Saudi Arabia so much, and obviously Iran. And yes, we also have missionaries in Israel. I don't think my particular church has been involved with that so much, but I know it is done through the Southern Baptist Convention.

I'm not sure how many people "like" Israel for eschatological reasons. I've never thought of it like that. I like Israel because they are an anchor of democracy in a troubled part of the world and I also agree with them that they have a right to exist.

[jo kus]

We are saved through faith. True Catholic statement. Grace is not of our works but a gift of God. True Catholic statement.We should walk in good works. True Catholic statement.We are saved through faith alone. Conterscriptural heresy.

AH, just thought I'd pop in. I see the same old ground is being fought over, ad nauseum. Nothing new under the sun, right?

Regards

[annalex]

I was having a lot fo fun with Catholic Conversion threads lately:

Happy Easter

I generally stay away from marathon threads, except when asked a direct question.

[kosta50]

"I" don't say God made us, Kosta, God said it. I believe it.

No, some men did who wrote the Bible. And now you are repeating what they said and claim it's God speaking. That's no different that the Muslims claiming the Koran was dictated word-by-word to Mohammad.

In Reformed theology, as Scripture tells us, our "spiritual standing" is a result of our salvation by Christ, not the cause of it

I never said it was. In the Reformed theology our spiritual standing was fixed long before Christ died on the cross. Since everyone has been assigned to either heaven or hell before they even existed, one must wonder why did Christ have to die?

Somehow you believe you earn your salvation by your actions

I never said that. Are you just throwing this in so you wouldn't answer my other questions such as "does God make your foot itch and why?"

And now I fully expect you to rebute the word of God by saying Paul was a gnostic and why should you believe Paul?

Well, is St. Paul did say (I am not saying he did) that our souls were pre-fabricated before the foundations of the world, then that would be in line with the Judaic faith that he held before he joined the Christians. That would also be consistent with the Gnostic teachings, which have often blended with many Jewish and Christian sects at that time. But, I think the Church would be adamant that St. Paul does not tech the pre-existence of the souls.

[Forest Keeper]

Your view of God makes both evil and goodness primary causes of God's creative power .Thus making Evil and goodness EQUAL,Thus making God eternal evil and eternal goodness in order to fit the reformed view of a sovereign God.

Then as I said in an earlier post, you don't understand the distinction between God ordaining that evil happen and God causing evil. The God you are espousing is extremely weak and NOT sovereign. That is because for you man must be in control and be sovereign apart from God. That is the perfectly natural desire of men as they are born. The universe really ISN'T big enough for both man and God to be in control. Therefore, for man to "claim" his control, God must be diminished. That is a huge difference between Reformers and Apostolics.

I don't think you realize this,fk, but what you're doing is saying the devil is not the cause of evil because you believe that God planned the devil to be evil.

No, I think I know pretty well what I'm saying, and that is, satan IS a cause of evil AND that God planned that he be so. Your side claims that God has all foreknowledge, so why did He create satan in the first place? Was He hoping He would be wrong? :)

I also wish you a blessed evening.