Click Video- Learn how DNA was able to sort out and match the DDS fragments
Posted on 09/15/2007 11:47:41 AM PDT by restornu
Click Video- Learn how DNA was able to sort out and match the DDS fragments
Trouble is, you are convinced that these ‘sticks’ talked about are the BIBLE and the BOOK of MORMON.
The text does NOT support that assumption.
I guess you ARE holdin' yer breath!
Um, just everything that was ever written by Joseph on the subject prior to them using his manuscripts in the Times and Seasons article, from which every other error perpetuated. It's a no brainier.
What attempt at diversion? You asked (yet again) why the happenings of the temple are not written in our scriptures, and I pointed out that not everything that Jesus said to his closest disciples were written down either, in fact, he mostly spoke in parables to the general public. How is this any different? If as was quoted, the "world itself could not contain the books that SHOULD be written" about Jesus, why would you demand that the sacred things of the temple be in the scriptures for all believer and unbeliever alike to see?
Are you saying Jehovah has situational ethics?
Huh? Says who? How do you find out any truth? We've been saying it over and over and over. Let James say it one last time. Follow his formula, it never fails...
James 1:
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
God is the ONLY confirmer of truth! No one, not even LDS should take anyone's word for anything, but should require the Holy Ghost to confirm the truth of all things.
Cheers
“The choice of word used to describe the motivation or behavior of the father, Heber, concerning his daughter’s binding to Joseph Smith is inflammatory per se and thus the sidebar shall be pulled.
The issues involved should be discussed without provoking a flame war.”
I am a bit at a loss how to continue under this restriction. For example, quite a number of people looked the other way for many years as Warren Jeffs (following the example of Heber Kimball, Joseph Smith, Parley Pratt, et. al.) followed his own star doing the same thing, I wonder if I should meekly attest that Jeffs is also merely “misunderstood” so I am not labeled abrasive? Of course, Jeffs is now under indictment and the subject of much scorn for “giving” his 14 year old niece to her 19 year old cousin, so I suspect there are worse terms for him than I used for Heber.
If calling Heber out for what he was doing is proscribed, how should we in general refer to Warren Jeffs? Kindly Father Figure? Patriarch with Good Intentions? Just a nice man with a piece of candy?
I am just curious how you call convincing your 14 year old daughter to marry a man in his 40’s anything but what it is? Here is what Helen Mar Kimbal wrote:
“With all the false traditions in which we were born, and in consequence of the degenerate tide with which the human family has been drifting for generations past, and as the Lord had no organized priesthood on the earth, it is not to be wondered at that in our ignorance of His ways the feelings of our natures should rebel against the doctrine of a plurality of wives. I remember how I felt, but which would be a difficult matter to describe—the various thoughts, fears and temptations that flashed through my mind when the principle was first introduced to me by my father [Heber C. Kimball], who one morning in the summer of 1843, without any preliminaries, asked me if I would believe him if he told me that it was right for married men to take other wives, can be better imagined than told. But suffice it to say the first impulse was anger, for I thought he had only said it to test my virtue, as I had heard that tales of this kind had been published by such characters as the Higbees, Foster and Bennett, but which I supposed were without any foundation. My sensibilities were painfully touched. I felt such a sense of personal injury and displeasure for to mention such a thing to me I thought altogether unworthy of my father, and as quick as he spoke, I replied to him, short and emphatically, “No, I wouldn’t!” I had always been taught to believe it a heinous crime, improper and unnatural, and I indignantly resented it.
This was the first time that I ever openly manifested anger towards him, but I was somewhat surprised at his countenance, as he seemed rather pleased than otherwise. Then he commenced talking seriously, and reasoned and explained the principle, and why it was again to be established upon the earth, etc., but did not tell me then that anyone had yet practiced it, but left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty-four hours, during which time I was filled with various and conflicting ideas. I was skeptical—one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast her off, and this was the only convincing proof that I had of its being right. I knew that he loved me too well to teach me anything that was not strictly pure, virtuous and exalting in its tendencies; and no one else could have influenced me at that time or brought me to accept of a doctrine so utterly repugnant and so contrary to all of our former ideas and traditions. This was just previous to his starting upon his last mission but one to the eastern states. Fearing that I might hear it from a wrong source, knowing, as he did, that there were those who would run before they were sent, and some would not hesitate to deceive and betray him and the brethren, he thought it best that I should hear it from his own lips.
The next day the Prophet called at our house, and I sat with my father and mother and heard him teach the principle and explain it more fully, and I believed it, but I had no proofs, only his and my father’s testimony. I thought that sufficient, and did not deem it necessary to seek for any further, but had I been differently situated like many were without a father and a mother to love and counsel me, probably my dependence, like theirs, would have been on the Lord, but I leaned not upon His arm.
My father was my teacher and revelator, and I saw no necessity then for further testimony; but in after years the Lord, in His far-seeing and infinite mercy, suffered me to pass through the rough waves of experience and in sorrow and affliction, I learned that most important lesson, that in Him alone must I trust, and not in weak and sinful man; and that it was absolutely necessary for each one to obtain a living witness and testimony for him or herself, and not for another, to the truth of this latter-day work, to be able to stand, and that like Saul, we “must suffer for His name’s sake.” Then I learned that “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,” and that “He is nigh unto all those that call upon Him in truth, and healeth the broken in heart and bindeth up their wounds.”
So, apparently, Heber was just a kind trusted Father figure to his 14 year old daughter enticing her and advising her to go off with some guy in his forties so that the Kimball family could social climb at her expense.
So if I were to follow Heber’s template and do the same thing in the current era, I wonder who amongst you would defend me and suggest I should be treated with respect? I suspect some rather foul epithets would follow me and rightly so. All I ask is the same indulgence you give brave Heber.
"…And every thing found in the world has been before and has passed before him and has been organized before him… All the creations of the world have existed in each generation before they came to this world. All the souls of the children of men have been before they came down to the world, formed, before him in Heaven in the very likeness that they have in this world… For all souls are prepared to eternity, before the formation of the world." – 2 Enoch 9
"Enoch answered the people saying, 'Before anything was and before the whole Creation took place, the Lord established the age of creation; and after that he made all of the creation both visible and invisible and after that he created man in his own image. He gave him eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to think with and a mind to council. I swear to you my children that before man was in the womb of his mother we were prepared, each individual and a place for each spirit that each should sojourn here in his proper time, that man might be tested in the balance." – 2 Enoch 17
And lest you think I find only Apocrypha writings to testify of such things, here are old and new testament writings that speak of the same thing:
When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38: 4-7. The spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12: 7. Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1: 4-5. We are all his offspring, Acts 17: 28. God chose us before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1: 3-4. We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits, Heb. 12: 9. The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, Jude 1: 6. The Devil and his angels were cast out, Rev. 12: 9.
Perhaps I should have pinged you to my last post...
Seriously, are you kidding me? You just posted it!!
Even in your own NIV version it's clear:
NIV Jude 1:14-15 14. Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones
15. to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
So here we have Enoch's prophesies recorded in the New Testament, but his actual writings are nowhere to be found in accepted cannon.
Are you still with me on this?
Out of curiosity, since we know the Jews are the tribe of Joseph, and all Israel includes ALL the 12 tribes, why does the Ez. 37 reference talk of only two tribes bearing record? Stick of Judah and stick of Joseph? Why do you think Joseph is singled out here as a record?
Nah, I keep on breathing, and let the Lord do what He will in His own time. The records we have from Enoch have come to light since the time of Joseph Smith, so I consider them at least partly fulfilled. There are Enoch fragments also in the Dead Sea Scrolls, so hopefully when all is pierced together, there might be more. (how's that for returning to the thread topic!)
Oops, that was supposed to read... tribe of Judah
I have no clue what you got your self tangle up in but one thing I know for sure that Spirit are eternal they are not created!
When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38: 4-7. First, lets put up the entire context of the mangled portion you chose for your 'special' mischaracterization purpose:
Job 38:4-7 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? ... Would these be the same 'sons of God' who went in to the daughters of men and of whom giants were born? Text without context is pretext. As I've said before to you, you take scriptures for your own special interpretation, wrongly dividing the word for your twister purposes.
The spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12: 7. And just how would this lifted passage prove the spirit of you existed before you were created in a body? Is a vessel imagined prior to being thrown by the potter? Yes, but the imagining is not the post in actuality. Your problem is with temporal perspective and counting, as you seek to support the heresy of Smith that the spirits of men were with God in counsel before the forming of the universe in which we live.
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1: 4-5. Again, your special interpretation neglects the reality that God's perspective can 'see' you before you ever come into existence and can know your days even into eternity before He even creates you in fact of spacetime the way we sense it.
We are all his offspring, Acts 17: 28. When Jesus told Nicodemus 'yet must be born again', He was explaining to Nic (and to you since He could 'see' you would be in time some where/when) that to be the 'off-spring' of God ye must be born again, in spirit. If you are born of His Spirit, you are His off-spring.
God chose us before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1: 3-4. And since you cannot allow your heresy-instructed mind to see that God can see you even before you enter the universe, you cannot grasp the truth of this verse and have the joy He intended when He chose those who He did predestinate to be conformed into the image of His Son. The 'us' refers ONLY to those in Christ and Christ in them, by the power of the Holy Spirit of God.
We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits, Heb. 12: 9. I can only imagine what twist you Mormons will put upon this verse taken out of the context in which it was written! It begins to be digusting in your efforts to twist the excised portion of scripture --not the whole verse for it isn't as twistable for your demonic games-- so they support Smithism heresies! Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Heb 12:8 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Heb 12:10-11 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, Jude 1: 6. Did your word search defy you here, settling upon Angels rather than upon spirits of men? How foolish to twist scriptures so blindly in service to heretical teaching by aq flase prophet!
The Devil and his angels were cast out, Rev. 12: 9. Take heed lest you suffer the same fate for seeking to elevate heresies to gospel and Smithian mischief to doctrine for salvation.
Well, like I have said before, it comes down to the basis of: Do I believe Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in a vision? IF I do, then I believe in latter day revelation and the restored gospel. If I don’t believe that, then the rest doesn’t fall into place.
I believe.
We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. And actually, the COmmunity of Christ church does have the original manuscript from Joseph Smith for the Bible. They have started sharing it with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
Have you read and compared the JST to the Bible? Joseph Smith clarified some things, these are not radical changes. i have a meeting to go to, I’ll come back tonight or tomorrow night and answer more fully. Thanks!
Um, no. We have been promised that the prophet will not lead us astray. If he starts to do so, he will be removed.
You don’t like the Utah culture of making up names? I’ve heard some beauties (take the first 2 letters from the dad’s name and add it to some of the mom’s name, and voila LaDella is born. :)
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