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What do you do with a future National Israel in the Bible?
Tribulation Forces ^ | Thomas Ice

Posted on 09/01/2006 5:32:18 AM PDT by xzins

What do you do with a future National Israel in the Bible?
by Thomas Ice


I suspect that most of you have been at a theological crossroad at least once in your Christian life. I have stood at several over the years. Let me tell you about one such instance, since it is one that many have faced down through church history. It involves the question of "What do you do with a future national Israel in the Bible?" The decision one makes about this question will largely determine your view of Bible prophecy, thus greatly impacting your view of the Bible itself and where history is headed.

A Personal Crossroad

Back in the early '80s I lived in Oklahoma and was in my first pastorate after getting out of Dallas Seminary in 1980. I had been attracted for about a decade to the writings of those known as Christian Reconstructionists. Most reconstructionists are preterist postmillennial1 in their view of Bible prophecy. Up to this point in my life I considered myself a reconstructionist who was not postmillennial, but dispensational premillennial. Through a series of events, I came to a point in my thinking where I believed that I had to consider whether postmillennialism was biblical. I recall having come to the point in my mind where I actually wanted to switch to postmillennialism and had thought about what that would mean for me in the ministry. I remember thinking that I was willing to make whatever changes would be necessary if I concluded that the Bible taught postmillennialism.

I went on a trip to Tyler, Texas (at the time a reconstructionist stronghold) and visited with Gary North and his pastor Ray Sutton. I spent most of my time talking with Ray Sutton, a Dallas graduate who had made the journey from dispensationalism to postmillennialism. As I got in my car to drive the 100 miles to Dallas where I would stay that night, I expected to make the shift to postmillennialism. In fact, I spent the night in the home of my current co-author, Tim Demy, who told me later that he said to his wife after talking with me, "Well Lynn, looks like we've lost Tommy to postmillennialism."

The next morning as I drove from Dallas to Oklahoma, my mind was active with a debate between the two positions. About two-thirds of the way home, I concluded that to make the shift to postmillennialism I would have to spiritualize many of the passages referring to a future for national Israel and replace them with the church. At that moment of realization, which has been strengthened since through many hours of in-depth Bible study, I lost any attraction to postmillennialism.

Since that time, more than fifteen years ago, further Bible study has continued to strengthen my belief that God has a future plan for national Israel. It was the Bible's clear teaching about a future for national Israel that kept me a dispensationalist. What the Bible teaches about national Israel's future has been a central issue impacting the action of Christians on many important issues. It is hard to think of a more important issue that has exerted a greater practical impact upon Christendom than the Church's treatment of unbelieving Jews during her 2,000 year history. As we will see, treatment of the Jews by Christendom usually revolves around one's understanding of Israel's future national role in God's plan.

Chrisendom's Anti-Semitism

Over the years I have been asked many times, "How can a genuine, born-again Christian be anti-Semitic?" Most American evangelical Christians today have a high view of Jews and the modern state of Israel and do not realize that this is a more recent development because of the positive influence of the dispensational view that national Israel has a future in the plan of God. Actually, for the last 2,000 years, Chrisendom has been responsible for much of the world's anti-Semitism. What has been the reason within Chrisendom that would allow anti-Semitism to develop and prosper? Replacement theology has been recognized at the culprit.

What is replacement theology? Replacement theology is the view that the Church has permanently replaced Israel as the instrument through which God works and that national Israel does not have a future in the plan of God. Some replacement theologians may believe that individual Jews will be converted and enter into the church (something that we all believe), but they do not believe that God will literally fulfill the dozens of Old Testament promises to a converted national Israel in the future. For example, reconstructionist David Chilton says that "ethnic Israel was excommunicated for its apostasy and will never again be God's Kingdom."2 Chilton says again, "the Bible does not tell of any future plan for Israel as a special nation."3 Reconstructionist patriarch, R. J. Rushdoony uses the strongest language when he declares,

The fall of Jerusalem, and the public rejection of physical Israel as the chosen people of God, meant also the deliverance of the true people of God, the church of Christ, the elect, out of the bondage to Israel and Jerusalem, . . .4

A further heresy clouds premillennial interpretations of Scripture--their exaltation of racism into a divine principle. Every attempt to bring the Jew back into prophecy as a Jew is to give race and works (for racial descent is a human work) a priority over grace and Christ's work and is nothing more or less than paganism. . . . There can be no compromise with this vicious heresy.5

The Road to Holocaust

Replacement theology and its view that Israel is finished in history nationally has been responsible for producing theological anti-Semitism in the church. History records that such a theology, when combined with the right social and political climate, has produced and allowed anti-Semitism to flourish. This was a point made by Hal Lindsey in The Road to Holocaust, to which reconstructionists cried foul. A book was written to rebut Lindsey by Jewish reconstructionist Steve Schlissel. Strangely, Schlissel's book (Hal Lindsey & The Restoration of the Jews) ended up supporting Lindsey's thesis that replacement theology produced anti-Semitism in the past and could in the future. Schlissel seems to share Lindsey's basic view on the rise and development of anti-Semitism within the history of the church. After giving his readers an overview of the history of anti-Semitism through Origen, Augustine, Chrysostom, Ambrose, and Jerome, Schlissel then quotes approvingly Raul Hilberg's famous quote included in Lindsey's Holocaust.

Viewing the plight of the Jews in Christian lands from the fourth century to the recent holocaust, one Jew observed, "First we were told 'You're not good enough to live among us as Jews.' Then we were told, 'You're not good enough to live among us.' Finally we were told, 'You're not good enough to live.'"6

Schlissel then comments approvingly upon Hilberg's statement,

This devastatingly accurate historical analysis was the fruit of an error, a building of prejudice and hate erected upon a false theological foundation. The blindness of the church regarding the place of the Jew in redemptive history is, I believe, directly responsible for the wicked sins and attitudes described above. What the church believes about the Jews has always made a difference. But the church has not always believed a lie.7

The truth, noted by Schlissel, is what his other reconstructionist brethren deny. What Schlissel has called a lie is the replacement theology that his preterist reconstructionist brethren advocate. Their form of replacement theology is the problem. Schlissel goes on to show that the Reformed church of Europe, after the Reformation, widely adopted the belief that God's future plan for Israel includes a national restoration of Israel. Many even taught that Israel would one day rebuild her Temple. For his Reformed brethren to arrive at such conclusions meant that they were interpreting the Old Testament promises to Israel literally, at least some of them. This shift from replacement theology to a national future for Israel resulted in a decline in persecution of the Jews in many Reformed communities and increased efforts in Jewish evangelism. Schlissel notes:

the change in the fortune of the Jews in Western civilization can be traced, not to humanism, but to the Reformed faith. The rediscovery of Scripture brought a rekindling of the Biblical conviction that God had not, in fact, fully nor finally rejected His people.8

Yet Schlissel is concerned that his Reformed brethren are abandoning this future national hope for Israel as they currently reassert a strong view of replacement theology.

Whatever views were maintained as to Israel's political restoration, their spiritual future was simply a given in Reformed circles. Ironically, this sure and certain hope is not a truth kept burning brightly in many Christian Reformed Churches today, . . . In fact, their future conversion aside, the Jews' very existence is rarely referred to today, and even then it is not with much grace or balance.9

This extract establishes that the "spiritualized" notion of "Israel" in Rom 11:25, 26, was known to and rejected by the body of Dutch expositors. . . .

Since the turn of the century, most modern Dutch Reformed, following Kuyper and Bavinck, reject this historic position.10

Reconstructionist Schlissel seems to think that part of the reason why many of his Reformed brethren are returning to replacement theology is due to their reaction to the strong emphasis of a future for Israel as a nation found within dispensational premillennialism. Yet, dispensational premillennialism developed within the Reformed tradition as many began to consistently take all the Old Testament promises that were yet fulfilled for Israel as still valid for a future Jewish nation. Schlissel complains:

just a century ago all classes of Reformed interpreters held to the certainty of the future conversion of Israel as a nation. How they have come, to a frightening extent, to depart from their historic positions regarding the certainty of Israel's future conversion is not our subject here. . . . the hope of the future conversion of the Jews became closely linked, at the turn of the century and beyond, with Premillennial Dispensationalism, an eschatological heresy. This, necessarily, one might say, soon became bound up and confused with Zionism. Christians waxed loud about the return of the Jews to Israel being a portent that the Second Coming is high. It thus seemed impossible, for many, to distinguish between the spiritual hope of Israel and their political "hope." Many Reformed, therefore, abandoned both.11

Historical Development

As it should be, the nature of Israel's future became the watershed issue in biblical interpretation which caused a polarization of positions that we find today. As Schlissel noted, "all classes of Reformed interpreters held to the certainty of the future conversion of Israel as a nation." Today most Reformed interpreters do not hold such a view. Why? Early in the systemization of any theological position the issues are undeveloped and less clear than later when the consistency of various positions are worked out. Thus it is natural for the mature understanding of any theological issue to lead to polarization of viewpoints as a result of interaction and debate between positions. The earlier Reformed position to which Schlissel refers included a blend of some Old Testament passages that were taken literally (i.e., those teaching a future conversion of Israel as a nation) and some that were not (i.e., details of Israel's place of dominance during a future period of history). On the one hand, as time passed, those who stressed a literal understanding of Israel from the Old Testament became much more consistent in applying such an approach to all passages relating to Israel's destiny. On the other hand, those who thought literalism was taken too far retreated from whatever degree of literalness they did have and argued that the church fulfills Israel's promises, thus there was no need for a national Israel in the future. Further, non-literal interpretation was viewed as the tool with which liberals denied the essentials of the faith. Thus, by World War II dispensationalism had come to virtually dominate evangelicals who saw literal interpretation of the Bible as a primary support for orthodoxy.

After World War II many of the battles between fundamentalism and liberalism began to wane. Such an environment allowed for less stigma attached to non literal interpretation within conservative circles. Thus, by the '70s, not having learned the lessons of history, we began to see the revival of many prophetic views that were returning to blends of literal and spiritual interpretation. As conservative postmillennialism has risen from near extinction in recent years, it did not return to the mixed hermeneutics of 100 years ago, which Schlissel longs for, but instead, it has been wedded with preterism in hopes that it can combat the logic of dispensational futurism. Schlissel's Reformed brethren do not appear to be concerned that, in preterism, they have revived a brand of eschatology which includes one of the most hard-core forms of replacement theology. And they do not appear convinced or concerned that replacement theology has a history of producing theological anti-Semitism when mixed with the right social and political conditions. In fact, Schlissel himself preached a sermon a few years ago in which he identified James Jordan, a Reformed preterist, as advancing an anti-Semitic view of Bible prophecy.12

Conclusion

What one believes about the future of Israel is of utmost importance to one's understanding of the Bible. I believe, without a shadow of doubt, that Old Testament promises made to national Israel will literally be fulfilled in the future. This means the Bible teaches that God will return the Jews to their land before the tribulation begins (Isa. 11:11-12:6; Ezek. 20:33-44; 22:17-22; Zeph. 2:1-3). This has been accomplished and the stage is set as a result of the current existence of the modern state of Israel. The Bible also indicates that before Israel enters into her time of national blessing she must first pass through the fire of the tribulation (Deut. 4:30; Jer. 30:5-9; Dan. 12:1; Zeph. 1:14-18). Even though the horrors of the Holocaust under Hitler were of an unimaginable magnitude, the Bible teaches that a time of even greater trial awaits Israel during the tribulation. Anti-Semitism will reach new heights, this time global in scope, in which two-thirds of world Jewry will be killed (Zech. 13:7-9; Rev. 12). Through this time God will protect His remnant so that before His second advent "all Israel will be saved" (Rom. 11:36). In fact, the second coming will include the purpose of God's physical rescue of Israel from world persecution during Armageddon (Dan. 12:1; Zech. 12-14; Matt. 24:29-31; Rev. 19:11-21).

If national Israel is a historical "has been," then all of this is obviously wrong. However, the Bible says she has a future and world events will revolve around that tiny nation at the center of the earth. The world's focus already is upon Israel. God has preserved His people for a reason and it is not all bad. In spite of the fact that history is progressing along the lines of God's ordained pattern for Israel, we see the revival of replacement theology within conservative circles that will no doubt be used in the future to fuel the fires of anti-Semitism, as it has in the past. Your view of the future of national Israel is not just an academic exercise. I beg everyone influenced by this article to cast your allegiance with the literal Word of God lest we be found fighting against God and His Sovereign plan. W

Endnotes

1 For a definition of terms and labels used in this article consult the Glossary in Thomas Ice & Timothy Demy, editors, When the Trumpet Sounds: Today's Foremost Authorities Speak Out on End-Time Controversies (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1995), pp. 473-4.

2 David Chilton, Paradise Restored (Tyler, TX: Reconstruction Press, 1985), p. 224. 3 Ibid.

4 Rousas John Rushdoony, Thy Kingdom Come: Studies in Daniel and Revelation (Fairfax, VA: Thoburn Press, 1970), p. 82.

5 Ibid., p. 134.

6 Steve Schlissel & David Brown, Hal Lindsey & The Restoration of the Jews (Edmonton, Canada: Still Waters Revival Books, 1990), p. 47. For a survey of the history of anti-Semitism in the Church see David Rausch, Building Bridges: Understanding Jews and Judaism (Chicago: Moody Press, 1988), pp. 87-171. 7Ibid., pp. 47-48. 8Ibid., p. 59. 9Ibid., p. 42. 10Ibid., pp. 49-50. 11Ibid., pp. 39-40.

12 Steve Schlissel, The Jews/Jordan & Jerusalem, an audio tape obtained from Still Waters Revival Books, 4710 - 37A Ave., Edmonton, AB T6L 3T5, CANADA.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: antisemitism; church; dispensationalism; eschatology; israel; postmillennialism; premillennialism; preterism; replacement
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Schlissel goes on to show that the Reformed church of Europe, after the Reformation, widely adopted the belief that God's future plan for Israel includes a national restoration of Israel. Many even taught that Israel would one day rebuild her Temple. For his Reformed brethren to arrive at such conclusions meant that they were interpreting the Old Testament promises to Israel literally, at least some of them. This shift from replacement theology to a national future for Israel resulted in a decline in persecution of the Jews in many Reformed communities and increased efforts in Jewish evangelism. Schlissel notes:

the change in the fortune of the Jews in Western civilization can be traced, not to humanism, but to the Reformed faith. The rediscovery of Scripture brought a rekindling of the Biblical conviction that God had not, in fact, fully nor finally rejected His people.8

1 posted on 09/01/2006 5:32:21 AM PDT by xzins
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To: blue-duncan; Quix; P-Marlowe; Buggman; Corin Stormhands; Alamo-Girl; Revelation 911; BibChr
Ping to an interesting review.

I'm fascinated that Ice is saying that the dutch reformers supported the biblical view of a future for national Israel.

I'd like to track that down.

2 posted on 09/01/2006 5:34:19 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins
Ping to an interesting review.

I suspect a coming flame fest from the antidispensationalreplacementarianists.

3 posted on 09/01/2006 6:37:03 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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To: Salem; F15Eagle; Esther Ruth; RoadTest

You might find this interesting!


4 posted on 09/01/2006 6:51:29 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (Mid East Ceasefire = Israel ceases but her enemies fire)
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To: American in Israel; unionblue83; ZULU

Ping of interest!


5 posted on 09/01/2006 6:52:04 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (Mid East Ceasefire = Israel ceases but her enemies fire)
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To: Convert from ECUSA
Soon....
Then shall two be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Praying for Mr. Schlissel, saw him at home school conferences years ago, talked briefly, main speaker, he was great, boy does he loves the Lord much!

(But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up!)

Well, since no one is jumping on this thread, thought I'd add something.

(When WE all get to heaven what a day of rejoicing that we be...!)
6 posted on 09/01/2006 7:21:27 AM PDT by Esther Ruth (Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep. The LORD is thy keeper!)
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To: xzins; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Alex Murphy
What do you do with a future National Israel in the Bible?

The title should have been: What do you do with something that cannot be demonstrated conclusively from the Bible without positing raw assertions?

Tommy (Mr. "Replacement theology" == anti-Semitism) Ice's biases and politics are showing.

Read Supersessional Orthodoxy; Zionistic Sadism by Ken Gentry

In Ice's book Ready to Rebuild there is a picture of him, with delight in his eyes, sitting down with Gershon Salomon, the Jewish founder and head of the Temple Mount Faithful. Now as a good Christian, I am sure Tommy warned Salomon of the soon coming holocaustal judgment on Israel. And I am sure as a Christian pastor he presented Salomon the Gospel of Jesus Christ, pointing out that He and He alone is "the way, the truth, and the life." Of course, I just recently purchased some ocean front property in Arizona, too.

7 posted on 09/01/2006 7:22:31 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Alex Murphy
I suspect a coming flame fest from the antidispensationalreplacementarianists.

Perhaps the flames will be not so intense when you guys start posting articles from Saucy, Blaising and Boch, rather than Tommy Ice. They clearly represent the future of dispensational thinking. The "old school" guys are a dying breed. You could tell they were feeling the heat when they decide to play the "race card", i.e., traditional supersessionism == anti-Semitism.

How long can Ice, LaHaye, and Linday keep up this mantra of "1948 is eschatologically significant" and non-dispensationalists are racists line? It's getting very old, and dispensationalists of all stripes are coming to realize that fact.

I'm not holding my breath, but it would be refreshing.

8 posted on 09/01/2006 7:32:40 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: xzins
Three possible events that had far more impact on the life of Christianity than our (occasionally bad) manners towards the invited guests who spurned the invitation and crucified the inviter! And have since then been hardened in petulent unbelief by nearly two millenia of denial.

I thank God for my friends who are still enmeshed in soul-damning cults (mormonism, islam, judaism) even as I pray for their conversion and salvation. In fact, the founding pastor of my church was raised Jewish, then came to the ongoing party as a young man, and has been busily inviting others to join the fun ever since.

9 posted on 09/01/2006 7:48:03 AM PDT by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)
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To: topcat54; P-Marlowe; Buggman; blue-duncan; Alamo-Girl; Quix

It is historically true that as a rule antisemitism did not come out of churches that accepted a future national Israel.

Martin Luther became rabidly antisemitic, but I'm not sure of his eschatology. If he was a typical amillennialist, then replacing "Israel" with "church" was not something that would have BLOCKED this very negative direction of his later years.

Now, there are shoes for both feet. One can play the "replacemetarian/antisemitism" card or one can play the "dispensationalism can only rely on its antisemitic bias" card.

Or we can say that the Christians need to look at each passage and make a decision from grammar, context, and history whether it refers to "national Israel" or "spiritual Israel."

The Bible and its proper interpretation is the issue.


10 posted on 09/01/2006 7:51:33 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: topcat54
How long can Ice, LaHaye, and Lindsey keep up this mantra of "1948 is eschatologically significant" and non-dispensationalists are racists line?

Matthew 24:34 reads "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till ALL these things be fulfilled." Which generation? Hal Lindsey had us believe it was our generation!

Back when Hal Lindsay wrote The Late Great Planet Earth, Israel's foundation (1948) was still recent history. Lindsey wrote that a "biblical generation" at that time was forty years in length. Thus, with the reestablishment of the Nation of Israel, the expectation was that the Tribulation and Christ's Return would occur within a biblical generation, IE within Lindsey's readers' lifetimes (1988 occurring forty years - one generation - after the reestablishment of Israel). Now two more decades have passed, the EU has grown beyond 10 members, the Soviet Bear has fallen, and last time I looked, I don't have a UPC bar-code tattooed on my forehead (or a techno-ID chip implanted in hand) and every car I see on the highway still has a driver. Either someone forgot to set the alarm on that prophetic clock, or Lindsey, LaHaye & co. just kept hitting the snooze button, hoping we'd forget about 1988 coming and going.

Fast forward to 2006. It's been almost sixty years since the foundation of Israel. Assuming the Rapture hits tomorrow, and the dispensational eschatology holds up, you still need to tack on an additional seven years to account for the Tribulation period before a pretrib Second Coming. Thus, either the biblical length of a "generation" is greater than 58 years and growing (assuming pretrib rapture, 65+ years if posttrib), or the old-school dispensationalists have badly misjudged which prophetic time period we're living in, and thus badly misunderstood Matthew 24:34.

In case nobody was looking, Lindsey's already spinning his failures into (future) successes by changing the way he calculates the Second Coming. Rather than begin calculations from the (formerly significant) 1948 (re)founding of Israel, Lindsey now starts with a young earth scenario, with the Earth being formed around 4000 b.c. His new math system now tells us a day is a thousand years, and thus he'd have us believe we're somewhere between 992 years away ("eight years into") and 1004 years away ("four years before") from the Second Coming (yes, his math is that precise). By date-setting the "Second Coming" date to about 1000 years in the future, it's now far ahead enough for Lindsey to avoid dying of embarrassment, should he miscalculate the date again.

In other words, Lindsey knows he was wrong about the 1988 date, but doesn't want to admit it in print. I wonder if Tommy Ice got the memo?

11 posted on 09/01/2006 7:54:47 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: TomSmedley
Judaism is not a cult. As distortions of other religions, mormonism and islam could be seen as cults. Judaism, on the other hand, pre-dated Christianity and is a valid religion in its own right. That doesn't even begin to address that it was instituted by God Himself.

I'm sure the author is talking about the murder, mayhem, and prejudice directed toward Jews....pogroms, holocausts, anti-Jewish laws, etc.

Those things you mention: justification, evangelization, and spirituality are not "practical" issues within Christianity. They are directly addressed, biblical, doctrinal issues. These are things that MUST be taught.

Persecution of Jews, on the other hand, is not a Christian doctrine.

12 posted on 09/01/2006 7:57:59 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: Alex Murphy; P-Marlowe
Hal Lindsey had us believe it was our generation!

I never got that.

I always got that it "COULD" be our generation.

Still could be. Jesus said to "Watch for you don't know when the Son of Man comes."

You'd better fault Jesus, too.

13 posted on 09/01/2006 8:03:47 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Alex Murphy
I'm fascinated that Ice is saying that the dutch reformers supported the biblical view of a future for national Israel.

Ice is no historian. Look at how he twists the words of Schlissel, who wrote:

Whatever views were maintained as to Israel's political restoration, their spiritual future was simply a given in Reformed circles.
Note how Ice's commentary distorts these words which are ambiguous as to a future national entity for Israel:
This extract establishes that the "spiritualized" notion of "Israel" in Rom 11:25, 26, was known to and rejected by the body of Dutch expositors.
Huh?? His extract does no such thing. Ice's survey of Dutch thinking amounts to some misplaced quotes from Schlissel.

The Dutch rejected the dispensational, premil notion of a future millennial kingdom after Christ's return with Israel at the center. The Dutch rejected any form of theology where nations were separated along racial lines for salvific purposes.

Ice also comments:

Yet Schlissel is concerned that his Reformed brethren are abandoning this future national hope for Israel as they currently reassert a strong view of replacement theology.
His continued reference to "this future national hope for Israel" make it appear that Schlissel, et al support the disnepsatioanlist theories. They do not. Their views on future Israel is radically different from the classic and neo-dispensational ones.

There have always been Reformed theologians (aka supersessionist "anti-Semites") of all strips that have held to a future for the Jews, whether national or otherwise. That is nothing new. In fact, the Westminster Larger Catechism calls out specifically for the conversion of the Jews.

What Ice wants you to believe is that there exists a latent appreciation for dispensational-style Jewish nationalism in Dutch (Reformed) thinking. Such is not the case. Reformed theologians have consistently affirmed a coming of Christ before the millennial, not after. They rejected all forms of "chilaism", the notion of a millennium on earth with Christ physically present and Jews in charge.

For your added entertainment, here is a portion from the Belgic Confession, one of the documents that makes up the "Three Forms of Unity" commonly used as confessions within the Dutch Reformed community:

Finally, we believe, according to the word of God, that when the time predestined by God and unknown to all creatures arrives, and the number of the Elect will be completed, our Lord Jesus Christ is going to return from heaven, bodily and visibly, just as He once ascended there, decorated with consummate Majesty, and He will reveal Himself as a judge of the living and of the dead, having set this old world ablaze with fire and flame in order that He would purify it. Then truly all creatures, so as with men also with women and infants, as many as have thereupon lived, back from the beginning up unto the end of the world, will appear in the presence of this consummate Judge, certainly called forth by the sound of both the Archangel and by the trumpet of God. For all of the previously dead will then rise up from the ground and, by the Spirit, the soul of every one of them, in turn, will be united and joined together with their own body in which they had lived. Again, those who will be living up unto that ultimate day will be transformed in but a moment and a blink of the eye, clearly from corruption into an incorruptible nature. (Belgic Confession, Article 37)
Within the context of the phrase "the number of the Elect will be completed" comes the understanding of whatever is included in Romans 11 wrt the Jewish and gentile converts to Christ. While there may be a massive conversion of Jewish people prior to Christ's return (which I happen to believe as a postmillennialist), nothing requires a wholesale return of Jewish people to the Middle East region in order for this to be fulfilled. There certainly is nothing about Jewish nationalism in any of the Dutch confessions.
14 posted on 09/01/2006 8:05:32 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Alex Murphy; TomSmedley
It is historically true that as a rule antisemitism did not come out of churches that accepted a future national Israel.

Please supply us all with a list of these churches, and references from their confessions as to their views on "a future national Israel".

This should be interesting.

15 posted on 09/01/2006 8:09:36 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54

I think you're pretty much culture bound in your request. Being from a church that has a confession that might mention such a thing, you forget that many churches are not nearly so formal. Some don't write lengthy confessions at all.


16 posted on 09/01/2006 8:13:39 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; TomSmedley
Judaism is not a cult. As distortions of other religions, mormonism and islam could be seen as cults.

Which form of Judaism -- hasidic, orthodox, traditional, conservative, reform, reconstructionist, humanistic/secular -- represents real Judaism today?

Would you say that reconstructionist or reform Jews observe the same central tenets as orthodox Jews?

That doesn't even begin to address that it was instituted by God Himself.

Which of these forms of Judaism did God institute?

Persecution of Jews, on the other hand, is not a Christian doctrine.

Can we not universalize this to say persecution of anyone is not a Christian doctrine? By singling out Jewish people you make it into a specialized "hate crime" category.

17 posted on 09/01/2006 8:18:19 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: xzins

Excellent article. Thanks much.


18 posted on 09/01/2006 8:30:56 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: P-Marlowe

Let it not come from our side. Sigh.

Holland is fully capable of carrying on a flame fest all on their own. Let them bear the responsibility alone, if they so insist.


19 posted on 09/01/2006 8:32:32 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Esther Ruth

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!


20 posted on 09/01/2006 8:33:26 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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