[xzins]

Schlissel goes on to show that the Reformed church of Europe, after the Reformation, widely adopted the belief that God's future plan for Israel includes a national restoration of Israel. Many even taught that Israel would one day rebuild her Temple. For his Reformed brethren to arrive at such conclusions meant that they were interpreting the Old Testament promises to Israel literally, at least some of them. This shift from replacement theology to a national future for Israel resulted in a decline in persecution of the Jews in many Reformed communities and increased efforts in Jewish evangelism. Schlissel notes:

the change in the fortune of the Jews in Western civilization can be traced, not to humanism, but to the Reformed faith. The rediscovery of Scripture brought a rekindling of the Biblical conviction that God had not, in fact, fully nor finally rejected His people.8

[xzins]

Ping to an interesting review.

I'm fascinated that Ice is saying that the dutch reformers supported the biblical view of a future for national Israel.

I'd like to track that down.

[Convert from ECUSA]

You might find this interesting!

[Convert from ECUSA]

Ping of interest!

[topcat54]

What do you do with a future National Israel in the Bible?

The title should have been: What do you do with something that cannot be demonstrated conclusively from the Bible without positing raw assertions?

Tommy (Mr. "Replacement theology" == anti-Semitism) Ice's biases and politics are showing.

Read Supersessional Orthodoxy; Zionistic Sadism by Ken Gentry

In Ice's book Ready to Rebuild there is a picture of him, with delight in his eyes, sitting down with Gershon Salomon, the Jewish founder and head of the Temple Mount Faithful. Now as a good Christian, I am sure Tommy warned Salomon of the soon coming holocaustal judgment on Israel. And I am sure as a Christian pastor he presented Salomon the Gospel of Jesus Christ, pointing out that He and He alone is "the way, the truth, and the life." Of course, I just recently purchased some ocean front property in Arizona, too.

[TomSmedley]

It is hard to think of a more important issue that has exerted a greater practical impact upon Christendom than the Church's treatment of unbelieving Jews during her 2,000 year history.
• How "justification by faith," the cornerstone of the Protestant Reformation?
• Or, how about the "legitimacy of using means to reach the heathen," the cornerstone of the Protestant missions movement?
• How about the continuing validity of spiritual gifts, that propelled pentecostalism from nothing to #3 place among Christian traditions in less than a century?

Three possible events that had far more impact on the life of Christianity than our (occasionally bad) manners towards the invited guests who spurned the invitation and crucified the inviter! And have since then been hardened in petulent unbelief by nearly two millenia of denial.

I thank God for my friends who are still enmeshed in soul-damning cults (mormonism, islam, judaism) even as I pray for their conversion and salvation. In fact, the founding pastor of my church was raised Jewish, then came to the ongoing party as a young man, and has been busily inviting others to join the fun ever since.

[onedoug]

Continue to be Jewish.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

What do you do with a future National Israel in the Bible?

Do? Do? By the Grace of Perseverance unto the Saints, continue to be a Member of God's Israel, that's what I intend to "DO".

The very Question is Absurd. According to the Scriptures... once I have accepted Christ, I am "a Jew, which is one inwardly" (Rom. 2:29), a Member of "the Circumcision" (Phil. 3:3), "a Child and Seed of Abraham" (Gal. 3:7, 29), a Citizen of the "Jerusalem which is above" and one of the "children of the promise" (Gal. 4:24-29); and, in fact, "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16).

And one thing that I do NOT intend to "DO", as a Member of "The Israel of God", is preach the Un-Christian Heresy of Thomas Ice, who falsely declares (against all Scripture and Tradition, throughout the History of the Christian Church everywhere):

"What one believes about the future of Israel is of UTMOST importance to one's understanding of the Bible."

"ut-most: of the greatest or highest degree" (dictionary.com)

That is Utter HERESY, pure and simple; as bad or indeed worse than the most extreme "Salvation = Faith + Belief in Calvinism" error of even the most Hardshell Hyper-Calvinist there ever was.

"What one believes about the future of Israel (by which the heretic Ice means the ethnic future of racial Jews) is of the GREATEST AND HIGHEST importance to one's understanding of the Bible"... OH, REALLY?!

More important that the Doctrine of the Trinity? More important than the Doctrine of Creationism? More important than the Doctrine of Substitutionary Salvation, itself? And are we now the understand that the Reformational Doctrine of the Perspicuity of Scripture is conditional upon one's obeisance to Thomas Ice's heretical Racialist dogma of Dispensationalism??

The Dispensationalist defenders of the Heretic Thomas Ice may quickly scramble and say, oh no, of course he didn't really mean that, maybe a bit hyperbolic, perhaps just a slight exaggeration on his part... surely you don't dare to hold a leading Dispensationalist Theologian to account for what he actually said, do you?!

Of course I dare. Where his treasure is, there is his heart; and out of the abundance of his heart, his heresy speaketh.

Proving the Heresy of Dispensationalism is simple.
You just let leading Dispensationalist Theologians talk.

Best, OP

[HarleyD]

Early in the systemization of any theological position the issues are undeveloped and less clear than later when the consistency of various positions are worked out.

I would say 1900 years of consistent church teaching on the matter is not "undeveloped". This is gobblygook to say they've abandoned historical teaching.

If the Jews are "God's own people" as the author claims, we all better switch to Judaism. But what can one expect from Dallas Theological Philosophical Seminary any longer.

[1000 silverlings]

To be against Zionism is not to be anti-Semetic. If that were so, many Jews would be anti-Semetic and that makes no sense. There is a future for the nation of Isreal, as one of the 70 nations and that's all.

[Little Ray]

Relgion aside, I support Israel as a place Jews can go if their current homeland betrays them.

Almost everywhere they have lived, Jews have been betrayed and persecuted. The only exception, so far, has been the USA.
If it were not the need for a Jewish homeland, the Jews should come to America. The US has cities larger than Israel and plenty of room for them. (Downside would be a lot of new Democrats - Israel is a socialist state...).

But that ain't gonna happen. Jews have good reasons not to trust any nation but their own.

[PRO 1]

The reason that contemporary Christians continue to fail in understanding the disposition of the nation of Israel is due to their failure to rightly divide the Word of God and specifically in the category of Biblical Administrations.

All that is in the Bible is to be understood in light of the fact that it is God's communication to mankind as to how he deals with his "invention" the creation and his children, mankind.

If there is an instruction from God as to how he is dealing with man, it will be stated in scripture and will continue until such time as he alters that method by instituting a new or different standard, again indicated by scripture.

Before the Law, God dealt with man through his chosen men called prophets referred to in the Bible as the Patriarchs. This marks the Patriarchal Administration. One had to obey or follow them to be in line with God.

When the Law was introduced the Administration changed referred to as the Law Administration. One had to obey or follow the Law to be in line with God.

With the coming of Christ, at the time his ministry began, one then had to follow God's "prophet" Christ the Son of God, known as the Christ Administration. This Administration terminated with Christ's death, resurrection, assention, and finally the offering of the Holy Spirit, God's Gift to man on the day of Pentecost.

What most Christians have failed to note at this point is a change in Administrations again explained to man in the Epistles by Paul. The reason that the followers of God became known as Christians was because of the teaching by Paul by revelation from God that believers had Christ in them. Christ-in, Christ-in, Christians. That is how the name Christan came to be used. Again a new or different concept from God in how God chose to deal with man. Again a new Administration called the Administration (or Age) of Grace.

Since the fall of man due to Adam's disobedience, God went about to restore the relationship with God and man that Adam lost affecting all of mankind. Because a man, Adam, had broken the relationship due to accomplishments of error (sin), it had to be a man again, through the accomplishments of obedience to "win back" the relationship on behalf of mankind according to a plan mapped out by God.

In the Bible one notes that God deals with mankind via a Nation, Israel, with a view to the appearance and accomplishments of Christ the obedient/perfect man, whom through his obedience and accomplishments restored the broken relationship between God and mankind. Formerly God had dealt with a Nation, Israel, as part of this plan until Christ. One has to acknowledge that God does not deal with a Nation, Israel (or any other), until the times described in the book of Revelation where God again deals with mankind through a Nation, Israel. The only dealings with Israel as a Nation that occur after Christ, and before the times of Revelation, is for Israel to "convert" to the knowledge taught by the Apostle Paul in the Epistles, Christianity, during the Administration of Grace. During this Administration, God does not deal with mankind via a Nation until the Revelation Administration begins with Christ's return, indicated in the Book of Revelation. In this gap of time the Nation of Israel is no more God's "chosen" people than the Apaches. All mankind, in order to be in line with God must follow or obey the Word of God given to the Apostle Paul noted in the Epistles. God will again deal with man via a Nation, but not until ALL the events that he describes, that mark that change, take place.

With this as your understanding, your Bible fits together and makes sense. With each new Administration comes its own set of guide lines, standards, "Laws" (if you will) for man to obey for him to be in line with God. One cannot use the "rules" of one Administration and apply them to another Administration of a different time frame and yet remain in alignment with God. Each Administration stands on its own drawing off of a former Administration for knowledge and learning purposes only, not necessarily for application.

[BlueNgold]

Dare I say I find the writing tedious?
Of course I find most people who claim to be able to decipher the prophets (New and Old) in terms of what they see in the world today are, well, tedious.

The arguments tend to meander and circle and loop and cross because they seek to convince us of something they cannot hope to prove. Why do I find this tedious? Because Christ himself told us that only the Father himself knows when the day of judgement will come - our job is to be ready - every day - every generation - every man - every family. Big words and esoteric arguments cross referenced and checked in 7 modern translations will not change that fact - only the Father knows the day.

I always ask the same thing when I read the ramblings of a mind so keen it can discern the prophets and the prophecies, and who is so smart and has such insight that they feel comfortable telling me that my view on any particular modern event has great meaning and defines my views and understanding of parts of the Bible...
What then is the end game?
What is the application?
What should I do differently than what Christ himself instructed us all to do?