Posted on 08/10/2006 9:24:00 AM PDT by Salvation
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How the Infallibility of the Magisterium Protects Us |
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08/10/06 |
If there is any dogma that sticks in the craw of non-Catholics, it is the dogma of papal infallibility. How ask many, can Catholics actually believe that any human being is incapable of error? |
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In This Article... By Divine Assistance What If Bishops Disagree? Special Authority of the Successor of Peter |
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The keys to the kindom of heaven regard forgiveness of sin. The "rock" of Peter was his ability to recognize the Holy Spirit, who was standing right in front of Him. That was a rational judgement he made regarding and based on all that he had seen and heard. That is what his faith was based on and it's additionally his firmness that gave it the character of rock. Jesus was speaking to an audiance here. It was not private. The audience was the whole world and that's why it was written. To think it was written as proof that God gave Peter special help is illogical. They all had seen and heard the same thing.
The loosing and binding refer to whether, or not individuals forgive the sins of others. It does not refer to rulemaking powers, or any individual's judgement capacity whatsoever. It refers to His command to wash each others feet, to cleanse them of sin. It is we He did and the command was given to all at the Last Supper. It does not mean folks should be slaves, serfs, or servants to the whims of others. That's illogical and He never taught such a thing.
The Magisterium is not infallible. It is composed simply of men given the same rational powers that all men were given, as per Gen 1. They're not seers and prophets, they rational agents, just like everyone else. That's given in Gen 3. Men are to work and produce by their own hands.
"promised the protection of the Holy Spirit to "guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13)."
Again, the Word is for all men. That promise was given to everyone, not to a few.
Sorry, I was unaware of this new rule. I respected devotional threads. My post 42 was intended as the keys to the universe. It is however, a challenging post. Delete it if you wish.
Our Blessed Mother asked her Son to perform his first miracle. Then she said to the waiters:
"Do as he tells you."
Hmmmm.
Christ's first self-manifextation -- even though he protested that it was not yet his time, he did as his Mother asked.
Please re-read the Gospel accounts of the Last Supper carefully.
"This is my Body."
"This is my Blood."
Christ stated that the Church, NOT Scripture should be the final authority: "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." (Matthew 18:17) Christ did NOT state to refer to or consult Scripture for disputes and correction. He said to go to the Church as It is the final authority in Christianity. In addition, St. Paul states that the Church, NOT Scripture is "THE pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15) Since the Church alone is mentioned as THE pillar of truth, then It alone has the right to discern the truth and interpret Scripture. For if individuals could correctly interpret Scripture, then all interpretations would be EXACTLY THE SAME as there can only be ONE spiritual truth for the plural of the word "truth" NEVER appears in Scripture. The Church is Christ's bride (Ephesians 5:29) and has no spot, wrinkle or blemish (Ephesians 5:27). Christ also stated that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18) so how can the Church commit error? Individual clergy may commit sins, even popes commit sins because in the Church there are both weeds and wheat (Matthew 13:30).
There! I'll take mine with some butter and a sprinkling of salt. Thanks.
The Bible as a whole was not compiled until the late 4th century and then it was compiled by a Catholic saint (St. Jerome) at the request of a Catholic pope (St. Damasus).
Literally eating flesh and drinking blood is taboo. It's SYMPBOLIC. You are not to literally imagine you are consuming His body.
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." - John 6:51-56
If Jesus said "Do this in remembrance of Me," why would He establish an "empty" sacrament? The Eucharist is Christ's Body and Blood. It is not a "representation" of it or anything less than His actual Body and Blood. Jesus lost many disciples when he stated that they would have to eat His Body and drink His Blood (John 6:60, 66). Yet He did not "call back" these disciples stating "I was just speaking figuratively." He let them leave. Why? If He had been speaking figuratively, He would have called them back and "explained" the doctrine, wouldn't He have?
The underlined sections put out by your church are 100% false...They know it and you know it...Paul rebuked Peter for false teaching...And since God knows everything, I suspect these events took place to show us not to follow ANY man...Put no faith in ANY man...
he is mentioned by name (e.g. Simon, Peter, Cephas, Kephas, etc.) 195 times in the course of the New Testament.
And the Trinity wasn't mentioned at all by name...So that proves, 'nothing'...
One compelling biblical fact that points clearly to Simon Peters primacy among the 12 Apostles and his importance and centrality to the drama of Christs earthly ministry
Christ's earthly ministry was to the Jews..."The Kingdom is at hand"...But the Kingdom never showed up...It was offered but the Jews rejected it... Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
Paul saw Jesus...And how did Paul see Jesus???
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Paul worked harder for God than the rest, including Peter, put together...
2Co 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such a one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 2Co 12:5 Of such a one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
2Co 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
It is CLEAR from these verses that Paul spent time in Heaven with God...Learning the mysteries of the church, the Rapture, the Kingdom(s), the Jews, the adoption, etc...It was ALL revealed to Paul...That's why he couldn't wait to get back there...
The Catholic Caucus is a protected church-like thread - challenges to doctrine are not allowed on such threads.
There's the long and short of it...From us, to God...Straight as a laser beam...
No, it's my thing..
See you just said it was a "bad" thing. Stop with the guilt already. Part of growing up is getting to decide whether or not you want to attend church. My relationship with God is personal. You have no idea how holy I am or not.
But thanks for caring.
"See you just said it was a "bad" thing. Stop with the guilt already."
Rebuking sinners is one of the seven spiritual acts of mercy.
"Part of growing up is getting to decide whether or not you want to attend church."
God gives us free will, which means the freedom to choose evil. So, yes, that means you can decide to do the wrong thing. It also means that others can tell you that you have chosen wrongly.
"My relationship with God is personal."
Yaddada yaddada yaddada. "Do this in memory of me" is a command, not a suggestion.
"You have no idea how holy I am or not."
Oh, yeah, anybody who wants to gan get a pretty good idea.
"Christ did NOT state to refer to or consult Scripture for disputes and correction."
Oh?
John 10:34-
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[Psalm 82:6]? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God cameand the Scripture cannot be broken what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
Matt 18:20
"For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
"He said to go to the Church as It is the final authority in Christianity."
Then why does the Church use scripture as a reference? Why does it use scripture to justify it's doctrine?
"Since the Church alone is mentioned as THE pillar of truth, then It alone has the right to discern the truth and interpret Scripture.
John 12:42-46 "Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.
Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
I don't see where He mentions believing in a church here, only in His words. His words are what count, not what anyone says about those words. The words speak for themselves and they are quotes from God Hiimself. To know the person of God, one must look at the person Himself. All other claims about that person made by others, must be referred to and found to be logically consistent with the words spoken by that person. If there's a conflict, the persons own words rule.
"For if individuals could correctly interpret Scripture, then all interpretations would be EXACTLY THE SAME as there can only be ONE spiritual truth for the plural of the word "truth" NEVER appears in Scripture."
You are right to say there is one truth and it is unique. The rule though, is rational examination and logical consistency. The rule is not axiomatic, as is doctrine.
John 15:7
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
He is refering to the Holy Spirit here, the sign of Jonah, the bread of life, the bread prayed for in the Lord's prayer and those other things similar to what is contained in the Lord's prayer.
"The Church is Christ's bride (Ephesians 5:29) and has no spot, wrinkle or blemish (Ephesians 5:27)."
Luke 11:52
"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."
"Christ also stated that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18) so how can the Church commit error?"
See Luke 11:52 above. It is not scripture that can be in error, but the experts in the law that can be.
"Oh, yeah, anybody who wants to gan get a pretty good idea."
Oh ouch! That hurt!
Not.
Since when is being an asshole part of being a Catholic?
"Oh ouch! That hurt!"
What in the world would give you the idea that it was supposed to hurt? It is a simple statement of fact, as true of any of us as of you.
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