[Catholic] Tradition catching on with Baptists [Ecumenical Ash Wed. Service]

Birmingham News ^ | Wednesday, March 01, 2006 | Greg Garrison

[Full Court]

Tradition catching on with Baptists Protestants begin to take part in Ash Wednesday for its theological lessons Wednesday, March 01, 2006 GREG GARRISON News staff writer It used to be that Baptists had nothing to do with Ash Wednesday, a liturgical holiday they associated with Catholics. No more. "It's a good way of putting the congregation in the right mind-set to prepare for Easter," said the Rev. Christopher Hamlin, pastor of Tabernacle Baptist Church in Smithfield. An ecumenical service at 6:30 tonight at Our Lady Queen of the Universe Catholic Church will include participation by three Baptist churches - Baptist Church of the Covenant and Trinity Baptist, both on Southside, and Tabernacle. "For us to go to the Catholic church, that's something new as Baptists," said the Rev. Sarah Jackson Shelton, the Covenant pastor. "It unites us as the bigger church, and with a larger tradition. ... It's being part of a sacred story that belongs to all of us." Other Baptist churches observe the tradition on their own. Fellowship of the Valley, for example, will have a service at 7 tonight at the Lake Cyrus Clubhouse in Hoover. "It's an appreciation for the symbols of our faith, an opportunity to see, feel and touch those symbols," said the fellowship's pastor, the Rev. Michial Lewis. Lewis said the Reformation of the 1500s, when Martin Luther led a reaction against abuses in the Roman Catholic Church, resulted in rejection of traditions such as Lent by many Protestants. "We do emphasize that our relationship with Christ is through faith alone, and the reformers wanted to avoid the appearance that we gain acceptance with God through rituals or symbols," Lewis said. "Now, people can understand the difference. These symbols come alongside as holy reminders." Robert Hodgson, dean of the Nida Institute for Biblical Scholarship at the American Bible Society in New York City, said many evangelicals are beginning to see the biblical roots of Lent. "Jesus goes into the wilderness for 40 days and disciplines himself with fasting and prayer." The 40 days of Lent are preparation for Easter, when Christians celebrate the resurrection of Jesus. Easter is April 16 this year for more than a billion Western Christians and April 23 for Eastern Orthodox. Baptists are taking an increased interest in the liturgical season for its theological lessons, Shelton said. "It's important for us to take the opportunity to confess our sin." During many Christian observances of Ash Wednesday, the minister rubs ashes on the foreheads of congregants and says, "You are dust and to dust you shall return," quoting a verse from Genesis. The wearing of ashes is prominent in the New Testament with John the Baptist, who called for repentance and wore sackcloth and ashes. "It's the outward, visible symbol of something that's happening internally," Shelton said. "We too will return to ashes," she said. "There's life beyond that, and hope beyond what we experience in this life." E-mail: ggarrison@bhamnews.com © 2006 The Birmingham News © 2006 al.com All Rights Reserved.

[Full Court]

None of the Catholic teachings, practices, and devotions contradict the scripture.

I would tend to believe that almost ALL of the catholic teachings contradict Scripture.

[wmfights]

"If you do not accept our own testimony concerning our own beliefs and intentions, you would be implying that we are lying to you."

I don't believe you are intentionally lying. I believe because you are a part of a church that teaches its members that it can not err your vision is blurred. I believe you are truly sincere, but misguided.
______________________________________

"Now when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

It's quite clear that the "elders" are offering the prayers of the saints."

In Rev 5:8 your right the elders are holding the bowls of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. They are presenting the prayers to GOD at his timing, just as Angels present prayers of the saints to GOD in REV 8:3-4. In both instances the prayers are being presented to GOD at GOD'S timing. I don't see any elders asking for special consideration for particular prayers they have heard.

BTW, since Revelations has examples of prayers being presented to GOD by Angels do you also pray to Angels to present your prayers? Why not go straight to our SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST he's the one who blessed us with his sacrifice.

JESUS promised all believers in JOHN 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

As a believer there is no reason to go to anyone but JESUS. He promised he won't drive us away.

[wmfights]

"I just wanted you to see that honoring God-loving people and asking for their intercession are normal daily practices of Christians everywhere. Thre's nothing spooky-dooky about asking your fellow-servants to pray for you, and certainly nothing idolatrous."

I think that asking LIVING human beings to pray with you is very SCRIPTURAL. However, I think asking the dead to intercede for you is "detestable to the LORD."

DEU 18:10-12 "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD,..."

"consults the dead" isn't that what your doing when your asking MARY to intercede for you, or help you with a problem?

[annalex]

I would tend to believe...

You tend to have fantastic and illogical beliefs

[ventana]

Pagans use to have the "Queen of Babylon" that they prayed to. I'm not sure but I suspect that this where all this began in your church, when pagans were incorporated converted into the church during Constantine's era they brought some of their beliefs with them.

No.

It goes back a bit further than Constantine. One of those books, in fact, that the father of protestantism, Martin Luther found so unworthy, difficult to accomodate in HOPIOS, and that he relegated to an appendix in his first German Bible:

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Mary, Queen of Heaven, as described by her adopted son.

[nanetteclaret]

You do not seem to have read the Scripture verses I posted as you have not answered my question to you: "Are you arguing with Jesus?"

[Titanites]

As to the Catholic church, it contradicts itself on doctrine that it held 50 years ago. 500 years ago.

For example?

The Catholic church of 300 AD was much closer to Baptists of today than the Catholic church of today.

No one who has ever looked into the teachings of the early Church can seriously make this claim. To help you out, here are just a very few teachings/quotes from the Church of around 300 AD:

Infant Baptism
"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them." (Hippolytus, The Apostolic Tradition 21:16, A.D. 215).

Efficacious Baptism
"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none." (Tertullian, Baptism 1, A.D. 203).

Baptism and Confirmation
"In the Gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]. This is the Spirit which from the beginning was borne over the waters; for neither can the Spirit operate without the water, nor the water without the Spirit. Certain people therefore interpret [this passage] for themselves wrongly, when they say that by imposition of the hand they receive the Holy Ghost, and are thus received, when it is manifest that they ought to be born again [initiated] in the Catholic Church by both sacraments." (Council of Carthage VII, Seventh Carthage, A.D. 256).

Physical Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (Justin Martyr, First Apology 66, A.D. 151).

"Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that, for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ" (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Discourses: Mystagogic 4:22:9, A.D. mid 300’s).

Priesthood and Forgiveness of Sins
"[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command." (Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition 3, A.D. 215).

Apostolic Tradition
"Papias [A.D. 120], who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the apostles from those who accompanied them, and he, moreover, asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly, he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their traditions [concerning Jesus]. . . . [There are] other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from tradition" (Eusebius, Church History 3:39, A.D. 312).

Apostolic Succession
"[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4:26:2, A.D. 189).

Mary: Ever-Virgin
"Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary." (Athanasius, Discourses Against the Arians, 2:70 A.D. 360).

"We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit." (Epiphanius of Salamis, The Man Well-Anchored 120, A.D. 374).

And there are many, many more quotes from the early Churh that support what is presented here. Do these teachings of the 300 AD church sound anything like present-day Baptist teaching? No, this is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches today.

[boycottmovies]

one more for our side. By the way, we've decided to take a trick from the Dems playbook, and have stopped going to movies. Why subsidize an industry devoted to pressing the hard left Democratic agenda? Anyone agree with this?

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

I answered your question with a question. Do you think Jesus taught that unity was more important than truth? And another question: Do you think Jesus taught that there would be some who called Him "Lord" but who would not be truly His?

I think Jesus taught that unity was important, to answer you more directly. I do not think He taught that unity was more important than truth.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Hey, can I add something you might like to hear? I am perfectly happy with Catholics continuing to provide us with Supreme Court Justices.

[nanetteclaret]

I think unity and truth are the same thing. Yes, there are some who call Him "Lord" who are not really His. As He explained, they are the ones who do not feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and prisoners, etc. Those actions have nothing to do with unity.

[Full Court]

The "Queen of Heaven" in Scripture is a pagan goddess.

Jeremiah 7:18  
The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough,
to make cakes to the queen of heaven,
and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 44:17
 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth,
to burn incense unto the queen of heaven,
and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jeremiah 44:18  
But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven,
and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

Jeremiah 44:19  
And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven,
and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?

The Jews were punished and suffered for leaving the One True God and serving the "Queen of Heaven."

Re. 12:1 and that whole chapter is describing Israel, not Mary.

Revelation 12:1
 ¶And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Mary was never a great wonder.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You wrote: "I don't believe you are intentionally lying."

Well, I thank you for that! Because it's not possible to "unintentionally" worship Mary or angels or any other creature. If a person's intention is to show legitimate honor, then their gestures should be interpreted as such, and nuff said!

(By the way, I want to commend you for a good discussion. It's always edifying when people can discuss issues where there is real disagreement without name-calling, imputing bad motives, insult, etc. --- which happens all too often on some FReeper threads...)

"In Rev 5:8 your right the elders are holding the bowls of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. They are presenting the prayers to GOD at his timing, just as Angels present prayers of the saints to GOD in REV 8:3-4. In both instances the prayers are being presented to GOD at GOD'S timing. I don't see any elders asking for special consideration for particular prayers they have heard."

Right you are.

"do you also pray to Angels to present your prayers?"

I certainly do! I ask my Guardian Angel to pray for me. I ought to do it more often, but I am such a slacker...

"Why not go straight to our SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST he's the one who blessed us with his sacrifice."

Well, I pray to Jesus probably about 90% of the time. Plus, when I pray to "God," sometimes I'm thinking of the Father and sometimes I'm thinking of the Holy Spirit, or the Trinity.

Do you find youself directing your prayers to the Trinity, or sometimes to the Holy Spirit? It seems like I almost forget the Third Person of the Trinity sometimes, except when I sing one of the beautiful hymns to the Holy Spirit:

You can hear it sung in Latin here, very beautiful:

http://www.erzabtei.de/antiquariat/Musik/Veni.html

And you can read a translation into English here:

http://www.scborromeo.org/prayers/veni.htm

I do not invoke the dead. I ask intercessions by all who are alive in Christ.

Again I ask, please pray for me!

[Full Court]

I ask intercessions by all who are alive in Christ.

How do you contact them?

[Mrs. Don-o]

"I ask intercessions by all who are alive in Christ."
---How do you contact them?

One lovely and traditional way is the Litany of the Saints:

Litany of the Saints

Lord, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, (refrain) Pray for us.
Saint Michael, (refrain "pray for us" after each)
Holy angels of God,
Saint Joseph,
Saint John the Baptist,
Saint Peter and Saint Paul,
Saint Andrew,
Saint John,
Saint Mary Magdalene,
Saint Stephen,
Saint Lawrence,
Saint Perpetua and Saint Felicity,
Saint Agnes,
Saint Gregory,
Saint Augustine,
Saint Athanasius,
Saint Basil,
Saint Martin,
Saint Benedict,
Saint Francis and Saint Dominic,
Saint Francis Xavier,
Saint John Vianney,
Saint Catherine,
Saint Theresa,
All you saints of God,
Pray for us.

Lord, be merciful
, Lord, save us.
From all harm, (refrain "Lord save us" after each)
From every sin,
From all temptations,
From everlasting death,
By Your coming among us,
By Your death and rising to new life,
By Your gift of the Holy Spirit,
Lord, save us.

Be merciful to us sinners,
Lord, hear our prayer.
Guide and protect Your Holy Church,
Lord, hear our prayer.
Keep our Pope and all the clergy in faithful service to Your Church.
Lord, hear our prayer.
Bring all people together in trust and peace.
Lord, hear our prayer.
Strengthen us in Your service.
Lord, hear our prayer.
Amen.

One of my favorite sung versions uses the refrain, "All you holy men and women, pray for us."

All in all, this is addressing the whole Communion of Saints, both those who are living on earth and those who are living in Eternity; that is, the whole Body of Christ, each member of which prays for the good of all, and all pray for the good of each: a stupendous and loving sharing of spiritual benefits.

What a privilege it is, to have such a tremendous spiritual family!

May Our Lord bless you!

Full Court, pray for me!

[Blogger]

Red Herring. What was the teaching of the church as a whole?

These are the teachings of individual teachers. As you know, various teachers differed with one another greatly over sundry items (still do). What became official doctrine? Officially, it is the creeds.
The teaching of the church as a whole is evidenced by the creeds at that time. Up until 400 and a little later there is very little (if anything- though a couple of things might need clarification) a Conservative Baptist (who from here on out will just be called "Baptist")would disagree with in the Creeds of that time. For example, which line of the Apostles Creed would a Baptist find offensive. If the words are understood- none.
Apostles' Creed

1. I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.


Also, individual beliefs often don't become official doctrine. For example, the belief in Limbo which many Catholics taught for centuries and which now may be categorically done away with. Some of the other practices such as latin Mass and certain penalties for various things have changed over the years. Doctrines have been added. Infant Baptism was not OFFICIAL until the 4th century. Prior to this, sprinkling was often a concession (if you couldn't immerse- you were allowed to sprinkle)

Even the formerly anathematized Protestants (see Council of Trent) are now considered "Separated Brethren" (Vatican II) or something to that affect whose baptism may be valid if done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Though apparently Catholics believe we will do a little more purgatory time.

Official Baptist doctrine comes from Scripture. Baptists being independent, there is some lee-way on non essentials so you may see some Arminian Baptists for example and some some Calvinsts, some pre Trib Rapture folks and some Amillenial. Scripture is where most of the doctrines of the early Creeds came from (yes, after some debate over what Scripture means).

Catholic doctrine comes from Scripture plus Catholic tradition. The latter moves about fairly frequently depending upon what pressures are being placed upon the church at the time (such as will we see a softening on the stance on contraception? which some would consider a mortal sin?) or who happens to be in the Papal/Cardinal seats at the time.

[wmfights]

"Re. 12:1 and that whole chapter is describing Israel, not Mary.

Revelation 12:1
¶And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Mary was never a great wonder."

__________________________________

Thank you for such a quick thoughtful response. I was just reading Revelations 12 1-17 to compose a response.

I might add REV 12:6 " The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by GOD, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days." The time frame is 3.5 years 1/2 the time frame of the tribulation.

[Full Court]

But how do they hear you?

[Full Court]

Amen! Our church is studying Revelation right now so I had been reading there.

It's a wonder to me to think about how God has made the whole plan for history.

Thanks for sticking in there with me. :-)

[Full Court]

I think unity and truth are the same thing.

But how could you be united with anyone who doesn't believe what you believe to be true?