[wmfights]

"If you do not accept our own testimony concerning our own beliefs and intentions, you would be implying that we are lying to you."

I don't believe you are intentionally lying. I believe because you are a part of a church that teaches its members that it can not err your vision is blurred. I believe you are truly sincere, but misguided.
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"Now when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

It's quite clear that the "elders" are offering the prayers of the saints."

In Rev 5:8 your right the elders are holding the bowls of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. They are presenting the prayers to GOD at his timing, just as Angels present prayers of the saints to GOD in REV 8:3-4. In both instances the prayers are being presented to GOD at GOD'S timing. I don't see any elders asking for special consideration for particular prayers they have heard.

BTW, since Revelations has examples of prayers being presented to GOD by Angels do you also pray to Angels to present your prayers? Why not go straight to our SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST he's the one who blessed us with his sacrifice.

JESUS promised all believers in JOHN 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

As a believer there is no reason to go to anyone but JESUS. He promised he won't drive us away.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You wrote: "I don't believe you are intentionally lying."

Well, I thank you for that! Because it's not possible to "unintentionally" worship Mary or angels or any other creature. If a person's intention is to show legitimate honor, then their gestures should be interpreted as such, and nuff said!

(By the way, I want to commend you for a good discussion. It's always edifying when people can discuss issues where there is real disagreement without name-calling, imputing bad motives, insult, etc. --- which happens all too often on some FReeper threads...)

"In Rev 5:8 your right the elders are holding the bowls of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. They are presenting the prayers to GOD at his timing, just as Angels present prayers of the saints to GOD in REV 8:3-4. In both instances the prayers are being presented to GOD at GOD'S timing. I don't see any elders asking for special consideration for particular prayers they have heard."

Right you are.

"do you also pray to Angels to present your prayers?"

I certainly do! I ask my Guardian Angel to pray for me. I ought to do it more often, but I am such a slacker...

"Why not go straight to our SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST he's the one who blessed us with his sacrifice."

Well, I pray to Jesus probably about 90% of the time. Plus, when I pray to "God," sometimes I'm thinking of the Father and sometimes I'm thinking of the Holy Spirit, or the Trinity.

Do you find youself directing your prayers to the Trinity, or sometimes to the Holy Spirit? It seems like I almost forget the Third Person of the Trinity sometimes, except when I sing one of the beautiful hymns to the Holy Spirit:

You can hear it sung in Latin here, very beautiful:

http://www.erzabtei.de/antiquariat/Musik/Veni.html

And you can read a translation into English here:

http://www.scborromeo.org/prayers/veni.htm

I do not invoke the dead. I ask intercessions by all who are alive in Christ.

Again I ask, please pray for me!