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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)
AP ^ | 3/24/01

Posted on 03/10/2004 9:37:27 PM PST by malakhi

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.


Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

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To: the808bass; ksen
Calvinists often seem to enjoy emphasizing the sovereign power of God but then feign ignorance when it comes to Creation. God created us. We did not ask for creation. We did not participate in our own making. God did that. And if God not only knew but indeed decided a priori that some, indeed most, of His creation would be damned to Hell, then God "caused" them to deny Him. You cannot dance around this.

Who's dancing around it or feigning ignorance of His creation, 808b?

Romans 9:19-24

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will? On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

And he did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles...


3,801 posted on 04/12/2004 6:04:31 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: the808bass
You can attempt to negate it or play word games with it, but in the end, you have a sovereign God who causes EVERYTHING, including the rejection of Himself.

Yup.

3,802 posted on 04/12/2004 6:05:06 PM PDT by malakhi (L'shana haba'ah b'Yerushalayim!)
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To: RnMomof7; Alex Murphy
We did not start the accusations of "ratting" , but if they have nothing better to do than try to divert attention away from the subject at hand..so be it

Honestly, if anyone couldn't figure out why the people were banned, then you weren't reading. A couple of people engaged in some creative (only mildly so) name-calling that was name-calling and jesting without naming a particular group. I would imagine that someone from that particular group or someone sympathetic to them got offended and pinged the mods. The mods even posted "I see what you're doing and it's not funny and you're not hiding it and you're going to get banned anyway even though you're not breaking the letter of the law." Or something to that effect. If you want a hint on the particular group's name it starts with M and ends with Mormon. Does that clear it up? It's really not rocket science. So can we cease and desist with this "it's an NES thing"?

3,803 posted on 04/12/2004 6:08:39 PM PDT by the808bass
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To: restornu; Alex Murphy
Have them pull #1741 and then talk about building bridges. Also, note no courtesy ping to me in #1741. The first step along the road to repair is yours to take.

Have a nice day.

PS: I am not Alex, so take your complaints about him to him.
3,804 posted on 04/12/2004 6:10:33 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: restornu
Correction: post #3741
3,805 posted on 04/12/2004 6:12:20 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: the808bass
Thanks bass.

3,806 posted on 04/12/2004 6:12:31 PM PDT by Quester (I just have this thing about accuracy.)
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To: the808bass; Alex Murphy
Calvinists often seem to enjoy emphasizing the sovereign power of God but then feign ignorance when it comes to Creation.
I'd like to see documentation of the last claim. As an unashamed monergist, I have not seen any of the authors supporting this position "feign ignorance" on creation. Can you provide citations?
3,807 posted on 04/12/2004 6:13:26 PM PDT by RochesterFan
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To: IMRight
It takes awhile to update all your links. Have't you ever been through a complete religious conversion?

And David cleans his LiveWire orange soda from his monitor. Thanks

3,808 posted on 04/12/2004 6:14:20 PM PDT by the808bass
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To: SoothingDave
The only way to know that you are one of the elect is to act like it.

If it's an act you aren't saved regardless of how "spiritual" you present yourself. Rev. talks about this . Jesus doesn't know them.

3,809 posted on 04/12/2004 6:15:07 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: SoothingDave
Baptism is Christian initiation. It is required for salvation

No it's not. You are saved and then baptized. See Acts.

3,810 posted on 04/12/2004 6:18:18 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: malakhi; Invincibly Ignorant
"There is a Jewish tradition..."

Hey, has anybody keyed Steven in on this yet? He's never been a big fan of tradition. -)

3,811 posted on 04/12/2004 6:22:53 PM PDT by AlguyA
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To: IMRight
Sorry... you can't take Christ with you on your little spiritual journey. He's staying right here. :-)

Yall can't keep him locked up in the church either. We are supposed to share Him:')

3,812 posted on 04/12/2004 6:25:55 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: RochesterFan
I'd like to see documentation of the last claim. As an unashamed monergist, I have not seen any of the authors supporting this position "feign ignorance" on creation. Can you provide citations?

If one pretends that God is not responsible for causing someone to reject Him but simultaneously espouses God's sovereignty, they seem to be missing the key link of Creation. Whether it's feigned or just a piece of cognitive dissonance is a fair enough question to ask, but it ends up with the same result. You cannot say that the Sovereign God created everything, chooses who will serve Him and then simultaneously pretend He does not cause those who do not worship Him to choose their course of faith and action.

3,813 posted on 04/12/2004 6:27:27 PM PDT by the808bass
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To: malakhi
Why wouldn't he? He's God.
3,814 posted on 04/12/2004 6:28:15 PM PDT by Gamecock ("We must remember that Satan has his miracles, too." John Calvin)
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To: drstevej
Have them pull #1741 and then talk about building bridges.

There is no need to have that post pulled when it was an opinion and NOT a definite statement!

I pray you are able to ascertain the diference!

Also, note no courtesy ping to me in #1741

I had NO knowledge you had return or was going to return!

3,815 posted on 04/12/2004 6:30:14 PM PDT by restornu (Discerning eyes can read it in the ether!:)
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To: OLD REGGIE
Reggie, don't get mad , ok? but what is it with you and Paul? It's one thing to not accept the writings but it's like something there that he said that really bothers you.
3,816 posted on 04/12/2004 6:32:31 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: the808bass; Alex Murphy
You obviously have not heard the monogistic argument concerning theodicy - (the problem of evil). Briefly, the argument goes as follows: God decrees all that happens and in doing so has only pure motives. Men carry out that plan, often with wicked motives of their own. The two best examples are the slavery of Joseph (see Gen 50:19ff) and the death of Christ on Calvary. In both cases, God's plans are entirely holy, righteous, and just: many are saved as a result. The men who carried out God's plan were wicked and sinful and unwittingly did the will of God for their own sinful reasons. It is for those reasons that htey are judged. A third example is the use of the nations to judge Israel. They accomplished God's purpose in judging israel but committed sin in doing so because of their heart. Accordingly, they were judged. The result is that a holy God is sovereign over all and is not yet the author of evil.

Again, I ask you for citations of the "feigning ignorance" by those authors who hold a monergistic position or an admition that it is only your opinion.

3,817 posted on 04/12/2004 6:39:27 PM PDT by RochesterFan
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To: RochesterFan
That should have been "monergistic." I need a spell checker....
3,818 posted on 04/12/2004 6:42:39 PM PDT by RochesterFan
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To: the808bass
So original sin is passed on biologically?

Sure. Why not? Everyone with original sin has been the biological child of somebody and everyone born without original sin has had some sort of "other" creation/conception.

It's a valid working theory. You think maybe test-tube babies will be able to keep the law?

3,819 posted on 04/12/2004 6:47:55 PM PDT by IMRight
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To: the808bass; RnMomof7; restornu
If you want a hint on the particular group's name it starts with M and ends with Mormon. Does that clear it up?

So now you're accusing Resty, or some nefarious LDS lurker, of pinging the mods to this thread?

3,820 posted on 04/12/2004 6:51:48 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
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