The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[SoothingDave]

If I used "fo" as an abbreviation, the "o" would stand for "off." LOL

It's a typo in this case. I a the master of transposition or somethign.

SD

[IMRight]

Hmmmm. Does that count against you for pinging the moderators?

It seemed like the right think to do....

I guess you get a pass on that one. :-)

[CindyDawg]

Yall know Mal is lurking don't yall? lol. He probably has no nails left:')

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Hmmmm. Does that count against you for pinging the moderators?

Ya know what? It kinda felt good. :-)

[lockeliberty]

SD: I grant nearly the totality of the Calvinist position as true on a cosmic level. But it does us no good from a practical level. We must live as if what we do matters. Q: I agree. We live our lives within the context

Context? The Reformed worldview is the only one that takes God's creational ordinances seriously with it's high view of the goodness of creation and the cultural mandate given to man by God. The RCC and most evangelical Protestants are still buying into nature/grace dualisms and not taking seriously that Christ has conquered sin and death and that we live today with the power to fulfill the cultural mandate until the final consumation at which time we will have a new earth and heaven. No, the Reformed worldview seems to be the only Christian worldview living within "context".

[JohnnyM]

"How can a Just God not punish sin no matter what the source?"

I agree with this. Sin cannot exist in the presence of a Holy God no matter what the source. But I would also say that a just God cannot condemn someone for being something that they can never be. I dont see justice in punishing a cat for not being a dog. So how are these two reconciled? It is reconciled in the Person of Jesus Christ. He has taken the punishment of sin for us and clothed us in His righteousness, if we only choose to believe in Him (John 3:16). And it is choice that this all centers around. Choice has existed since the Garden of Eden. It is a predominate theme in the Bible. Choose the good and flee from evil. This choice is the lynch pin on which our fate resides. For to choose Christ is to recognize that one is a sinner, wholly incapable of pleasing God or doing good. One in need of a Savior to free them from an eternity apart from God and to save them from the pit of Hell. To reject Christ is to remain blind to the truth about your true nature and consign yourself to an eternity apart from God and suffering the consequences of sin.

Now God in His mercy has given us that choice so that all are without excuse. So that the cat can never say that it was unjust because he was not a dog when God had given that cat the opportunity to be transformed into a dog through the work of His Son.

JM

[ksen]

I simply don't agree that this is the nature. Unless you radically redefine what "sin" means, this simply isn't true. No one is comopletely sin free and no one chooses the good all of the time.

Ok, let's start here. How do you define sin?

Here is my definition:

• And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. - Roamns 14:23

So sin is something that is done without faith. That being the case, can an Unbeliever ever do anything by faith?

But there are actions done by the unsaved that are not sinful.

Not according to Ro 14:23.

This, then, is where we are stuck. The unsaved person has just as much freedom, actual freedom, to choose good ro bad as the saved person does. But one has his will bent toward evil, the other toward goodness.

I'll grant the part of your argument that says the freedom is there. What I would say is that the will to do good, by God's standard, is not there in the Unbeliever.

[IMRight]

Mal?

[IMRight]

Don't let it get to your head.

[SoothingDave]

The RCC and most evangelical Protestants are still buying into nature/grace dualisms and not taking seriously that Christ has conquered sin and death and that we live today with the power to fulfill the cultural mandate

Surely you jest. The Calvinists, need I remind you, are the ones who believe that whatever "mandate" believers have is pre-determined and that nothing that they can do or not do has any bearing whatsoever on acheiving God's purposes.

Catholics believe that God has put us here and given us the grace we need to make His Kingdom fully known. And we believe our actions matter.

You're totally incorrect.

SD

[ksen]

Thanks for answering my question JM. I appreciate your thoughts.

I agree with this. Sin cannot exist in the presence of a Holy God no matter what the source. But I would also say that a just God cannot condemn someone for being something that they can never be. I dont see justice in punishing a cat for not being a dog.

But He is not condemning them for being something they cannot be. God is condemning them for what they are, which is a sinner. Even we put things down, not because they won't change but because they can't change, for example I just had a family cat put down because it had an incurably fatal disease. The cat had no decision in the matter, it couldn't change, was I unjust for putting it down?

So how are these two reconciled? It is reconciled in the Person of Jesus Christ. He has taken the punishment of sin for us and clothed us in His righteousness, if we only choose to believe in Him (John 3:16). And it is choice that this all centers around. Choice has existed since the Garden of Eden.

Ok, let's visit the Garden of Eden just after the Fall and the pronouncement of the punishment upon Adam, Eve, and the Serpent:

• Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. - Genesis 3:21

I think we agree that when God did this that it was a picture of Salvation. If so, where was Adam's choice in the matter? The Bible doesn't record Adam making a decision. It just says that God made coats for them and clothed them. Could Adam have rejected the covering God had made for him and his wife?

It is a predominate theme in the Bible. Choose the good and flee from evil. This choice is the lynch pin on which our fate resides. For to choose Christ is to recognize that one is a sinner, wholly incapable of pleasing God or doing good. One in need of a Savior to free them from an eternity apart from God and to save them from the pit of Hell. To reject Christ is to remain blind to the truth about your true nature and consign yourself to an eternity apart from God and suffering the consequences of sin.

I can agree with this statement. What I can't do is agree with you about why people make the decision that they make.

[lockeliberty]

You're totally incorrect.

No, I'm not "totally incorrect". Just because you have a misperception of Reformed theology and have been inculcated thoroughly in greek dualisms does not mean I am totally incorrect. It appears you have no understanding of how God's use of Covenants dictate the blessings and curses his people will receive. When His people are faithful God blesses them with all manner of blessings including the building of His kingdom. Just because you cannot in your own finite understanding resolve how God blesses people with salvation and requires responsibility to his elect does not negate the fact that we are creatures and He is the Creator. If we live in the here and now to glorify God in faithful obedience then God will build his kingdom. It is really that simple. I don't need to worry about whom may be elect because I know that God will use me to bring those who will come according to His own good will. My responsibility is to be obedient to His word and allow God to work through me as He pleases. All blessings come from God. Now that you have a better understanding I would hope that you would desist in your simplistic characterizations of biblical doctrine.

[JohnnyM]

"I think we agree that when God did this that it was a picture of Salvation. If so, where was Adam's choice in the matter? "

Genesis 3 is an excellent passage. May I add something to it.

Genesis 3
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.
8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, " Where are you?"
10 He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself."
11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"

Here we see that Adam knew he was naked (a sinner) and he knew this of his own accord, God did not tell him. Adam even tried to cover himself up in his own clothing (works), but even with those he still felt naked and the need to hide himself. From this we see, I believe, that Adam's knowledge of his nakedness led him to realize his need for the clothing which God gave to him.

JM

[Quester]

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. - Genesis 3:21

I think we agree that when God did this that it was a picture of Salvation. If so, where was Adam's choice in the matter? The Bible doesn't record Adam making a decision. It just says that God made coats for them and clothed them. Could Adam have rejected the covering God had made for him and his wife?

Why do you see this episode as a picture of Salvation ?

Do you see this passage as a picture of salvation, as well ?

Genesis 19:12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
...

24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Are there any choices (for salvation) made in this passage ?

[SoothingDave]

I would hope that you would desist in your simplistic characterizations of biblical doctrine.

As soon as you desist in your simplistic characterizations of my doctrine.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Here is my definition:

And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. - Roamns 14:23

So sin is something that is done without faith. That being the case, can an Unbeliever ever do anything by faith?

You are reading this out of context to be a general statement, when it isn't.

Paul is speaking about who can and can not eat certain foods, what is sinful and what is not. What he is saying is that a Christian should not disturb another's conscience. If a guy thinks eating X is sinful, then leave him be.

He's saying if you force the guy to eat pork and he has doubts, then you are making him condemn himself by his doubts. One must live out ones faith. To not do so is sinful.

That's all. And if you have faith, even one that is different about foodstuffs, if you introduce disharmony and doubt you are nto acting in good faith. So it is sin.

You demonstrate the very worst in taking a quote out of context and trying to make it into a universal. The Scriptures should be read in context.

It's a good clue that a verse is being cherrypicked when it begins with an "And" and yet we are supposed to act as if it stands on its own.

SD

[SoothingDave]

God is condemning them for what they are, which is a sinner.

Which is how they were made. Some people get cats and then get upset when they go out and fight and kill mice and leave their entrails on their doorstep. If you didn't want a cat, why would you get one?

Similarly, if God didn't want people to sin, why did He create us this way?

SD

[SoothingDave]

I think we agree that when God did this that it was a picture of Salvation. If so, where was Adam's choice in the matter? The Bible doesn't record Adam making a decision. It just says that God made coats for them and clothed them. Could Adam have rejected the covering God had made for him and his wife?

You think Adam was free to reject God in Eden, but not free to reject Him here? On what basis? That the Fall made Adam incapable of choice?

This is so confused. Earlier, you said that fallen man had no choice but to choose evil, to reject God. Now, fallen Adam has no choice but to acquiesce in God's "clothing" of him.

Is this clothing a "born again" moment for Adam? And if so, why does his sin then become inherited to us if ti was immediately forgiven by God? And why would God cover Adam's sin and offer him "salvation" as He is just beginning the punishment?

SD

[RnMomof7]

No we can't. I used to like you until now. Stop making stuff up about me. God knows how I feel about his word and how fast a pace I can go without losing concentration. He also knows how I witness. As long as He is ok with me, you and your buddies can go pound sand. I don't care what yall think anymor

No Cindy I am just paraphrasing exactly what you said

No movies? You too?:') Throw me some scripture on this stuff my way please. Just a little at a x though. I'm only good for about one paragraph and then I go scrolling to see what everyone else talking about :')

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1095208/posts?page=1840#1840

Is this a quote or not?

Now that is straightened out I want to ask you again , did Jesus die for those burning in Hell?

How can a just God demand double payment ?

[OLD REGGIE]

On lurk mode. I'm bored.