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To: JohnnyM
Thanks for answering my question JM. I appreciate your thoughts.

I agree with this. Sin cannot exist in the presence of a Holy God no matter what the source. But I would also say that a just God cannot condemn someone for being something that they can never be. I dont see justice in punishing a cat for not being a dog.

But He is not condemning them for being something they cannot be. God is condemning them for what they are, which is a sinner. Even we put things down, not because they won't change but because they can't change, for example I just had a family cat put down because it had an incurably fatal disease. The cat had no decision in the matter, it couldn't change, was I unjust for putting it down?

So how are these two reconciled? It is reconciled in the Person of Jesus Christ. He has taken the punishment of sin for us and clothed us in His righteousness, if we only choose to believe in Him (John 3:16). And it is choice that this all centers around. Choice has existed since the Garden of Eden.

Ok, let's visit the Garden of Eden just after the Fall and the pronouncement of the punishment upon Adam, Eve, and the Serpent:

I think we agree that when God did this that it was a picture of Salvation. If so, where was Adam's choice in the matter? The Bible doesn't record Adam making a decision. It just says that God made coats for them and clothed them. Could Adam have rejected the covering God had made for him and his wife?

It is a predominate theme in the Bible. Choose the good and flee from evil. This choice is the lynch pin on which our fate resides. For to choose Christ is to recognize that one is a sinner, wholly incapable of pleasing God or doing good. One in need of a Savior to free them from an eternity apart from God and to save them from the pit of Hell. To reject Christ is to remain blind to the truth about your true nature and consign yourself to an eternity apart from God and suffering the consequences of sin.

I can agree with this statement. What I can't do is agree with you about why people make the decision that they make.

2,351 posted on 04/07/2004 9:24:21 AM PDT by ksen (This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth I bid you stand, Men of the West!)
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To: ksen
"I think we agree that when God did this that it was a picture of Salvation. If so, where was Adam's choice in the matter? "

Genesis 3 is an excellent passage. May I add something to it.

Genesis 3
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.
8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, " Where are you?"
10 He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself."
11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"

Here we see that Adam knew he was naked (a sinner) and he knew this of his own accord, God did not tell him. Adam even tried to cover himself up in his own clothing (works), but even with those he still felt naked and the need to hide himself. From this we see, I believe, that Adam's knowledge of his nakedness led him to realize his need for the clothing which God gave to him.

JM
2,353 posted on 04/07/2004 9:39:58 AM PDT by JohnnyM
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To: ksen
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. - Genesis 3:21

I think we agree that when God did this that it was a picture of Salvation. If so, where was Adam's choice in the matter? The Bible doesn't record Adam making a decision. It just says that God made coats for them and clothed them. Could Adam have rejected the covering God had made for him and his wife?


Why do you see this episode as a picture of Salvation ?

Do you see this passage as a picture of salvation, as well ?
Genesis 19:12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters;
the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
...

24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
Are there any choices (for salvation) made in this passage ?

2,354 posted on 04/07/2004 9:45:21 AM PDT by Quester (The mills of God may grind slowly, ... but they grind exceedingly fine.)
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To: ksen
God is condemning them for what they are, which is a sinner.

Which is how they were made. Some people get cats and then get upset when they go out and fight and kill mice and leave their entrails on their doorstep. If you didn't want a cat, why would you get one?

Similarly, if God didn't want people to sin, why did He create us this way?

SD

2,357 posted on 04/07/2004 10:22:38 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: ksen
I think we agree that when God did this that it was a picture of Salvation. If so, where was Adam's choice in the matter? The Bible doesn't record Adam making a decision. It just says that God made coats for them and clothed them. Could Adam have rejected the covering God had made for him and his wife?

You think Adam was free to reject God in Eden, but not free to reject Him here? On what basis? That the Fall made Adam incapable of choice?

This is so confused. Earlier, you said that fallen man had no choice but to choose evil, to reject God. Now, fallen Adam has no choice but to acquiesce in God's "clothing" of him.

Is this clothing a "born again" moment for Adam? And if so, why does his sin then become inherited to us if ti was immediately forgiven by God? And why would God cover Adam's sin and offer him "salvation" as He is just beginning the punishment?

SD

2,358 posted on 04/07/2004 10:27:50 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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