Baptist Theologian Says Non-Catholic Believers Should Honor Mary

Agape Press ^ | December 24, 2003 | Jim Brown

[NYer]

(AgapePress) - A Southern Baptist theologian says he wrote an article in Christianity Today on the Virgin Mary in hopes of encouraging evangelical Christians and other Protestants to pay more attention to her.

Dr. Timothy George is dean of Beeson Divinity School at Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. As a biblical scholar and educator, as well as a senior editor for Christianity Today magazine, George has written a number of books and articles on religious subjects, and has authored a doctrinal study for the Southern Baptist Convention.

In his recent Christianity Today article titled "The Blessed Evangelical Mary," George notes that Evangelicals and Protestants have reacted so negatively in the past to Catholic teaching on Mary that many of these non-Catholic Christians may have ignored constructive material about the mother of Jesus in the Bible.

George says he was prompted to write the article based on conversations he has had with Roman Catholics. "They give a great deal of devotion to Mary that we Evangelicals and Protestants feel is not appropriate biblically or can't be justified," the theologian says. "And yet, as you can see from how I developed the article, I feel there is a proper biblical way of honoring Mary -- and maybe we've neglected that."

George feels Mary was a great example of Christian discipleship and obedience, who should be praised for her faithfulness. He says non-Catholic Christians should not hesitate to lift up the "blessed virgin" this Christmas, and in general.

"Mary is a model believer," George says, noting that the mother of Jesus believed the Word of God when it came to her, even as she was being prepared by the Holy Spirit to give birth to the Messiah.

"She believed the word of the angel and said 'Let it be unto me according to your word.' So she submitted to the will of God in great humility," George says.

The Southern Baptist scholar and author, who has been involved for a number of years in a project called Evangelicals and Catholics Together, says reaction to his article has been mostly positive. However, he notes that he has received some negative letters from former Catholics who have become Protestants.

[Tantumergo]

"Whatcha need checked out?"

It was after your recent altercation with the Jewish anti-missionaries, where they were trying to wriggle out of Isaiah's prophecy of the "...mighty God..." Messiah. I was wondering if there was anything in the Hebrew that made the following passage ambiguous as to His divinity:

Dan 7,13 "I beheld therefore in the vision of the night, and lo, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and he came even to the Ancient of days: and they presented him before him.
14 And he gave him power, and glory, and a kingdom: and all peoples, tribes and tongues shall serve him: his power is an everlasting power that shall not be taken away: and his kingdom that shall not be destroyed."

Everlasting power seems pretty much like a divine prerogative to me - or am I missing something?!

[drstevej]

I started a reply but instead I'll just say, Happy New Year.

[Tantumergo]

Forgot to mention - another case of "immaculate conception" in the bible is the only other saint, apart from Mary, who's feastdays take precedence over the Sunday liturgy when the feastday falls on a Sunday!

[drstevej]

More riddles. Can I phone a friend?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Just thought I say to you :read later. LOL

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

On another note, I bet you read most of the threads you mark and use them with your students your teaching.

If I remember right I think I saw you say one time that you were teaching some.

If you do this, do you give the all the different argument's that go along with the thread? I've used this a bit in the past when I was teaching a class, and it turned out to be great, and makes for a very interesting class, everyone gets involved.

BigMack

[Tantumergo]

"More riddles. Can I phone a friend?"

Yes - try Luke:

For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

[drstevej]

So filled with the Holy Ghost = sinlessness?

Sure you want to go there, Tanto?

[Tantumergo]

"So filled with the Holy Ghost = sinlessness?"

Being filled with the Holy Ghost is what removes original sin - hence baptism being regenerational.

The only difference between Mary and John is that she was filled with the Holy Ghost from the first moment of her conception, whereas we don't know if it was at this point for John, or whether it was 6 months into the pregnancy that he was filled with the Holy Ghost.

Whether he remained sinless after he was born is another matter, but he did have good examples to follow:

Luke 1,6 "And they were both just before God, walking in all the commandments and justifications of the Lord without blame."

[drstevej]

***Being filled with the Holy Ghost is what removes original sin - hence baptism being regenerational. ***

WOAH! You mean after you were baptized you have been sinless? You suggest John may or may not have remained sinless during his earthly life. Is relapse possible?

Q: When Mary was called full of grace, was that a pronouncement of her state at that time or did it extend into the future?

You are digging an ever deeper hole.


water baptism = regeneration = sinless

Was Stephen (also "full of grace") also sinless?

[Tantumergo]

"WOAH! You mean after you were baptized you have been sinless?"

Sure - baptism wipes away every sin - both original and actual - it is the washing of regeneration. This is why St. Francis of Assisi could genuflect before a newly baptised infant because it had become a spotless temple of the Holy Spirit.

"You suggest John may or may not have remained sinless during his earthly life."

Sure.

"Is relapse possible?"

Sure it is - the original sin came about through the sin of an immaculate virgin! (two immaculate virgins to be precise!)

"When Mary was called full of grace, was that a pronouncement of her state at that time or did it extend into the future?"

It was a pronouncement of her state at that time. We believe that she lived the rest of her life in a manner that did nothing to dis-grace herself.

"Was Stephen (also "full of grace") also sinless?"

That depends on whether he sinned since his baptism. If he was full of grace then he had either not committed mortal sin since his baptism, or if he had committed mortal sin, he must have subsequently had it remitted through the sacrament of penance.

[Tantumergo]

"You are digging an ever deeper hole."

Why's that then? You didn't really believe all this "Catholics think Mary is a goddess" crap did you?

"Mary is the Immaculate Conception" = Catholic-speak for "Mary was filled with the Holy Ghost from her mother's womb."

[drstevej]

Hail John, Full of Grace

Is there a John the Baptist Rosary?

[Gamecock]

We believe that she lived the rest of her life in a manner that did nothing to dis-grace herself.

Too include having marital relations with her husband?

[Tantumergo]

"Hail John, Full of Grace"

I know you are fond of non-scriptural prayer, but we couldn't subscribe to that one!

We could say "Hail St. John, angel of God, greatest prophet amongst those born of women."

"Is there a John the Baptist Rosary?"

No but we honour him every day at Lauds when we pray the Benedictus:

Et tu puer propheta Altissimi vocaberis præibis enim ante faciem Domini parare vias ejus
Ad dandam scientiam salutis plebi ejus in remissionem peccatorum eorum
Per viscera misericordiæ Dei nostri in quibus visitavit nos oriens ex alto
Illuminare his qui in tenebris et in umbra mortis sedent Ad dirigendos pedes nostros in viam pacis

His feast days also rank alongside those of the BVM. This is from the Office of readings for June 24th - The Nativity of St. John the Baptist:

"The Church observes the day of John's birth as a holy day: none of the fathers is thus solemnly commemorated. We celebrate John's birth as we celebrate Christ's...."
St Augustine Sermon 293, 1-3

[drstevej]

Curious, ever ask John the Baptist to intercede for you?

If not, why?

[Tantumergo]

"Too include having marital relations with her husband?"

She never had them as she was a temple handmaid and consequently was vowed to perpetual virginity. Otherwise why would she say:

Luke 1,34 "And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?"

The obvious response for any betrothed/married woman when informed that she would have a child would be to assume that this would be through natural means.

Why didn't Mary just assume that Gabriel meant she would have a child after her husband diddled her?

It was because she had no intention of ever being diddled!

However, if she had not been under oath to remain a virgin, subsequent diddling by her husband would not have been sinful and therefore would not have affected her state of being full of grace.

[Gamecock]

Otherwise why would she say: Luke 1,34 "And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?"

Because this was current tense, not future. Why would she have not said "for I know not man, nor will I ever know a man...

Was it common for temple handmaids too be engaged?

[Tantumergo]

Curious, ever ask John the Baptist to intercede for you?

Sure - in every Mass:

I confess to almighty God,
to blessed Mary ever virgin,
to blessed Michael the
archangel, to blessed John
the Baptist, to the holy
apostles Peter and Paul, to
all the saints, and to you,
brethren, that I have sinned
exceedingly in thought, word,
and deed: through my fault,
through my fault, through my most
grievous fault. Therefore I
beseech the blessed Mary ever
virgin, blessed Micheal the
archangel, blessed John the
Baptist, the holy apostles
Peter and Paul, all the
saints, and you, brethren,
to pray to the Lord our God
for me.

He is also remembered in the Roman Canon of the Mass or Eucharistic Prayer 1 for those who prefer such terminology.

[old and tired]

Curious, ever ask John the Baptist to intercede for you?

I have often asked John the Baptist to pray for me that the Lord would give me the gift of zeal in the pro-life movement. For me, it took great courage to stand outside a killing center. Whether it came by habit or by the intercession of John the Baptist, I no longer am afraid to confront our culture of death.