Baptist Theologian Says Non-Catholic Believers Should Honor Mary

Agape Press ^ | December 24, 2003 | Jim Brown

[Tantumergo]

"The fact that the same phrase used to describe Mary in Luke is used to describe all Christians in Eph. 1 is more interesting to me."

In Jerome's Vulgate, the term in Eph 1,6 is also translated as graced:

"4 As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity.
5 Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will:
6 Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath graced us in his beloved son."

I think that in verse 4 you have the perfect scriptural description of those who have been "graced" in his beloved Son.

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception simply affirms that Mary was so graced at the moment of her conception, similar to the way in which John the Baptist was graced in his mother's womb.

Does the fact that the same term is applied to Mary in Luke, and all Christians in Ephesians cause you a problem?

[Tantumergo]

"I could see "God wrote the NT using men from the Church," but asserting the Church wrote the NT is downright dangerous."

A more accurate rendering would be that the Church wrote the NT under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. The men from the Church also being the Church, when in communion with both Head and Body.

[Tantumergo]

"kecaritwmenh is passive -- Mary is not the object of the verb, thus, this grace is not something she did"

Where did anybody ever suggest that Mary "did this grace". She received this grace from God which enabled her to lead a sinless life. At no time in her life did she resist God's grace. (But as a Calvinist you don't believe that she could have resisted God's grace anyway, do you?)

"Why the heck did someone sinless consider God her Savior?"

Because it was God's grace who had saved her from sin by acting on her at the first moment of conception and then continually throughout the rest of her life.

"What did she need to be saved from?"

Dis-grace of course.

If a man falls in a hole and you pull him out, you have saved him. If another man is about to fall in a hole and you throw down a plank for him to walk across, then you have still saved him. Its just that in the second case, he did not fall in the hole first before you saved him.

He might even thank you and say:

"..he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name."

[Tantumergo]

"I am aware of that tense differential, but the perfect passive participle does not guarantee she remained full of grace"

I SEE - grace is irresistable WITH THE EXCEPTION OF MARY is it?

I think you better revert to a 3 pointer!!!

;)

[Tantumergo]

"Also, show that full of grace means sinless. "

Eph 1,4 "As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity.
5 Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will:
6 Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath graced us in his beloved son."

[drstevej]

Please explain how these verses make the point that full of grace mean sinlessness.

[DManA]

Or, the simplest possibility, after Jesus was born they led normal lives and begat the brothers and sisters that are talked about in the Gospels. Seems more reasonable than pretending they perpetrated a fraud on the people of Nazereth by maintaining a sham marriage.

[Tantumergo]

Go on - get serious!

You are not really suggesting that anybody could be full of grace and in a state of sin at the same time are you?

[Tantumergo]

"Or, the simplest possibility, after Jesus was born they led normal lives and begat the brothers and sisters that are talked about in the Gospels."

If that were any kind of possibility at all then you would be certain of finding some Christians who believed that.

The fact is that Christians have never believed that, they do not believe that, and they never will believe that.

Even Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and Mohammed never believed that!

As for your ideas of a sham marriage, I would suggest that they are conditioned by 20th century American idolatry of genital activity, rather than having any basis in Christian belief.

[drstevej]

Grace is used of a variety of expressions of God's favor. Grace is exhibited in election, calling, justification, sanctification and glorification (et al.).

Define the meaning of grace in reference to Mary at the announcement? That might keep us from talking past one another. Oh, BTW, also explain the biblical basis for the meaning of grace you assign to this statement.

BTW, I take the grace as sanctifying grace. She was a godly woman even as Job was described as exemplary in his spirituality (Job 1:1-5).

[DManA]

I understand you judge all Christians by their church affiliation. Fortunately, for all mankind, you are not the Judge that matters.

Your thinking that the principle that a marriage isn't a marriage until it is consummated is a modern debauched idea merely amusing.

As for your ideas of a sham marriage, I would suggest that they are conditioned by 20th century American idolatry of genital activity, rather than having any basis in Christian belief.

[Tantumergo]

"Define the meaning of grace in reference to Mary at the announcement?"

Why? Where does the bible draw all these subtle distinctions of different types of grace? Are these not man-made philosophical labels that simply describe the different functions of grace?

As she is full of grace, that could well encompass all the myriad varieties of grace that you propose.

Bottom line is grace = divine life of God = Holy Spirit.

[drstevej]

***Are these not man-made philosophical labels that simply describe the different functions of grace?


OK, which "FUNCTION" of grace is being described in the pronouncement to Mary? You must have a basket full of nits by now.

***Bottom line is grace = divine life of God = Holy Spirit.***

Biblical basis for this equation?

[Tantumergo]

"You must have a basket full of nits by now."

Sorry - does this translate into English-English?

[drstevej]

Nit-picking - a colloquialism for quibbling

Here is some etymology of the term I googled for you...

==

Language lovers are sometimes confused with (or is that "accused of?") being nitpickers -- that is, of being the sort of folks who indulge in minute and usually petty criticism. We'll sidestep the fine line separating a thoughtful writer or speaker from a carping critic and instead investigate the somewhat unsavory story behind the word nitpicker.

The figurative meaning of nitpicker is nasty enough, but that word's literal meaning is downright lousy. That's right: nitpicking has its roots in nit, the name for the egg of a louse or other parasitic insect, or for the young insect itself. As you might have guessed, the painstaking process of picking the tiny nits out of hair inspired the nitpicking sense of criticism. We suppose things could be worse: the term could be lousepicking instead of nitpicking.