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Lets get the SKINNY on the Atkins Diet
CookingWithCarlo.com ^ | Oct 4 2003 | Carlo3b Dad, Chef, Author

Posted on 10/04/2003 11:42:34 AM PDT by carlo3b

 


Lets get the SKINNY on the Atkins Diet

By: Master Chef, Carlo J. Morelli

Because of a Doctor named Atkins and his hypothesis of weight loss and diet, everything that was UP, is now DOWN, and everything that was FAT is now getting a great deal THINNER.

The Atkins diet is basically the polar opposite of the prevailing knowledge we have been taught about healthy eating since the word "calorie" was brought into vogue some 50 years ago.

For the past 30 plus years, this controversial diet has quite simply never been far from the spotlight, or the bestseller list. Celebrities loved it. Health experts hated it. However, more than a few high profile, beautiful people, support the Atkins theory of weight loss, not just in theory, but in full frontal, or even more appropriately they stand behind it.

What made Dr Atkins Diet so difficult for the medical, and nutritional establishment to swallow, was his near total repudiation of their unanimous conclusions on weight, health, fitness and diet. After the years that the medical community spent building a solid consensus, and food pyramids, Atkins had the audacity to blame them for the failing physical health of the American people.

He suggested that people on his diet should eat foods like cheese, steak and sausages - which are high in fat - but not those that are high in carbohydrate, like pasta, bread and cereals. OUTRAGEOUS, claimed the so-called experts, DANGEROUS, was the clarion cry, and some went so far to suggest FATAL, could be the result. That was decades ago. Legions of people say the fine Doctor was right, and the so-called pros were WRONG!

Well, who is right, and which one needs to eat their words. Here are some facts that can not be disputed. Running parallel to the time line of the the growing health awareness campaign, concerning the average American diet.. phenomenal weight gain has been attributed to be the single most damaging health concern. However, it has to be said, the same approximate starting point in time, coincides with the popularity of the TV, thus TV dinners and such activities as channel surfing in lieu of... well, you understand where this is going..

Further, the same period gave birth to the beginning of the famous fad diets that dominated the conversations, airwaves and the market place. Each of these utopian gastronomic innovations, promised Venus like results.. Of course none did, and that gave way to the DIET PILL. The various miracle pills promised, that without changing our ways of living that got us to where we were, they promised and promised, and finally they just pooped out.

STAY AWAY FROM MEAT, stay away from milk, no eggs, apples, chicken, soda, just stay away from chips... well,  just stay away from me!  Eat fish and everything natural, the nanny crowd told us.. Sure, easy for those who lived by the swordfish can die by it, for all I care. But that ain't me, too many Moe said

Desperate to fit into last years bathing suit, folks began pursuing crash diets in hopes of losing unwanted pounds in a few days. Eat apples, bushels of them, chased with wine. California and Washington state's wallets bulged, but so did everyone's midsection.. Broccoli, was the next panacea, but that caused gasterea. Followed by cabbage, grapes, then watermelon, and then finally just water, gallons of it.. and the unwanted pounds will just float away.

All during this tumultuous period, spanning over 40 years, the medical and diet constabulary kept preaching variety, balance, and building on blocks of food groups, recommended daily servings, counting, counting everything, and vitamins.. blue ones, green ones, big ones, little ones, and oh yeah.. exercise. We sure needed exercise, after taking exactly, 77,000 milamorons of assorted vitamins.

Lest we forget EXERCISE!  Health clubs popped up everywhere, and everyone was now sweating, jogging, pumping, cycling. The economy in the health and fitness industries grew and grew, but unfortunately so did the size of our collective gut!  Exercised worked then and it works now.. no argument, but most of the people living in our fast paced country simply wouldn't or can't devote that much time to the Stairmasters.

Labels, by golly, it was the labels, IF MANUFACTURERS WOULD JUST TELL US THE TRUTH.. put it on the box, package, bag, can.. everything in black and white each and every milimicrogram, and how many.. croscamelose sodiumdelcamicium are in it, so we can judge for ourselves.. the health nut crowds demanded, everyone would manage their own weight..

After decades of gaining, and billions of dollars, in labeling, counting, sweating, weighting, and popping, and after eating, lite, low, high, less, joining anything with a promising name.. burp.. we are fatter than ever, and dangerously ill with obesity causing heart, lung, and diabetic seizures.. it brings us to WHERE?

Were the experts wrong? Is balance, counting and labels the only way to a healthy life? NO, attitude is. If you are really fat or getting that way and feeling the weight of it on your mind and body, you have to make a decision. You and only you can change your direction and your dress, or belt size. There can be no, South Beach, Palm beach, or beached wale, that will make a difference without you demanding it of yourself.

The good news is Atkins, and modifications of it, works for most people. If you are truly serious about losing weight, there is now a way to do it that millions of people have proved, if you can believe millions of people. Even the naysayers have begun to come around, and have finally published the first real study of its kind, American scientists have found that over 12 months Atkins dieters lost more weight than those on a conventional low calorie diet, says the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine!! YIKES..

If you don't think that little tidbit choked as it came out, you have been sleeping over the past 30 years. Atkins has been saying to anyone that would listen, and apparently millions have, that Carbohydrate provides energy, and Dr Atkins' theory is that if carbohydrate intake is restricted a body will get its energy by burning fat instead, which will result in weight loss. It's that simple!

Followers of the diet can't get enough of it - they say it works. But some medical experts have still raised serious concerns about the diet's long-term safety. Somewhere close is the real answer, and if you follow the letter of this learned Doctor's diet guidelines, as well as your own body clock, you will lose the weight you wish, and most of all, keep it off.



The Major Benefits of the Diet, in short. Excerpts courtesy of The Atkins Center.

Diets high in sugar and refined carbohydrates like bread, pasta, cereal, and other mainly "low-fat" processed foods increase your body's production of insulin. When insulin is at high levels in the body, the food you eat can get readily converted into body fat, in the form of triglycerides (to top it off, high triglyceride levels in the body are one of the greatest risk factors for heart disease).

Even worse, high carbohydrate meals tend to leave you less satisfied than those that contain adequate fat levels; so you eat more and get hungrier sooner. If you find this hard to believe, think about how much pasta you can eat at lunch and then how hungry you are running to the vending machine for another "carbo-fix" in the mid-afternoon. If the pasta you ate was really giving your body what it needed, you would stay full until dinner time. So the typical low-protein, low-fat meal leaves you eating more and hungry sooner.

So what should you do? Get off the insulin generating roller coaster of the low-fat diet and start cutting down on your carbohydrate consumption, especially the worst offenders: sugar, white flour and other refined carbohydrate-based products. What can you expect from this? Three wonderful results:

1) You'll start to burn fat for energy: Since carbohydrates are the body's primary energy source, you'll rarely use your secondary energy source, you own body fat, for energy unless you restrict carbohydrate consumption. This offers a lifetime of body fat burning, which is the goal of most people trying to lose weight.

2) You won't feel hungry in between meals: The biggest battle that most people have with weight loss is the constant obsession with food (for example, if you've ever thought about dinner when you're eating lunch). Again, much of this is caused by blood sugar fluctuations that are aggravated by carbohydrate consumption (especially the refined kind). By cutting the carbs, you'll maintain a more even blood sugar level throughout the day. No more false hunger pains or mid-afternoon brain drains.

3) Your overall health will improve and you'll feel better: Many of the toxins you take into your body are stored in your fat cells. By getting your body to burn stored fat, you allow it to clean itself out. Combined with the benefits of stable blood sugar, the end result is that many common ailments you have been experiencing could well be alleviated. Fatigue, irritability, depression, headaches, and even many forms of joint and muscular pain simply go away. Furthermore, you should see a significant improvement in your blood profile, (including cholesterol and blood pressure levels). All this leads to better health and well-being-- something all of us strive to bring into our lives.

Key Information About Sugar

It contains no vitamins. No minerals. It is 100% carbohydrate. So it must be metabolized immediately. The stores of nutrients built up in your body are called out like militia men, to "charge" the sugar, and similar forms like glucose and fructose, and turn it into ready energy, depleting your body in the process. Sugar is an energy sucker: the Anti-Nutrient.

White flour is its second-cousin—almost as bad. When you partner the two together— flour and sugar—it spells disaster for anyone trying to maintain a healthy body, let alone someone who is fighting disease or trying to lose weight. If they are consumed on a regular basis, the body is in a constant state of nutritional deficiency. If you don't believe that sugar is an anti-nutrient, try having a rich dessert after dinner on a night you're feeling under the weather – you'll be sure to wake up the next morning with a full-blown illness.

What's frightening is that in recent years, the government and other advisory groups like the American Medical Association have encouraged the consumption of flour by unveiling a new food pyramid that is based on grains and recommends six to eleven servings a day. And no distinction is made between white processed flour, which is stripped of the nutrients, especially important trace minerals, and the much more healthy whole grains (unless you have a food allergy). And the result? Americans now think they're making healthy choices by loading up on cereals, pasta, crackers and breads. We even have products like Pop-Tarts®, with 39 grams of carbohydrate, 20 of which are sugar, carrying the American Heart Association Seal Of Approval. It is a travesty.

So how do we protect ourselves and stay healthy? One thing we can do is eat a healthy, balanced diet of low-carbohydrate foods. And when our foods fail us, as they often do after being picked, shipped, stripped, processed and packaged, we can protect ourselves with solid vita-nutrient support. It is critical that you include this extra "insurance policy" to take you into the kind of healthy life we all want to lead.

(Pop-Tarts® is a registered trademark of Kellogg's USA, Inc.)

Answering The Critics

While mainstream medicine and nutrition have, on the whole, criticized the Atkins Diet, the facts speak for themselves:

Dr. Atkins and his colleagues at The Atkins Center for Complementary Medicine in New York have treated over 60,000 patients using the Atkins Diet as a primary protocol. These patients experience all the beneficial effects detailed above, as well as improved blood pressure, lower cholesterol, and a lower or completely eradicated dependence on prescription drugs.


While the mainstream critics continue to lament the consumption of fat as the root of America's weight problem, only carbohydrate consumption (mostly refined) has increased in the past few decades, while fat consumption has declined (as the "low-fat/high carb" diet has been promoted as the best nutritional option for every living person). During this time:

Obesity, which in the past had consistently applied to about 25% of the population, increased to 33%
Heart disease now accounts for 50% of all deaths, up from 40% in the 1970s
Cases of diabetes are growing in near epidemic proportions (in fact, children are now contracting adult-onset diabetes)
Hypertension, chronic fatigue and attention-deficit-disorder are now well recognized conditions.
All of these conditions are linked not by the amount of fat in ones diet, but by blood sugar disturbances and insulin disorders caused by excessive refined carbohydrate consumption (FYI: The average person now consumes over 150 pounds of sugar a year, up from less then 10 pounds in the 19th century).
While medical and nutritional journals are filled with studies documenting the body's requirement of essential fatty acids and essential amino acids (derived from protein), there is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. Why then does the FDA recommend an average of 16 servings a day?

The Atkins Diet is not a no-carbohydrate diet. The diet focuses on very limited consumption of the types of carbohydrates that tend to spike blood sugar levels the most, including non-whole grain bread, pastas, refined sugar products, juices, and high sugar/starchy fruits and vegetables. Atkins Dieters learn to determine their personal sensitivity to carbohydrates, as a way to manage their weight and health for life.



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Front Page News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Political Humor/Cartoons; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: atkins; diet; facts; fatbehind; food; fun; recipes; skinny
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To: SamAdams76
LowCarb Almond Mousse Supreme
1) Mix cream with 3/4 c. of water. Place gelatin in the 1/4 c. water, soften and heat until gel is dissolved.
2) Place cream and water in blender then add all the rest of the ingredients and blend at least 5 minutes on the highest setting until like cream.
Divide into 6 serving dishes.

Top with whipped cream and a tsp of fruit or berry on the top is pretty.
3 grams carb per serving
 

221 posted on 10/06/2003 9:40:09 AM PDT by carlo3b (http://www.CookingWithCarlo.com)
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To: SaveTheChief
Creme brulee, chocolate mousse, cheesecake--all made with a sugar substitute. Check out standard recipes, and just use Splenda instead of sugar. And, use a little less than recommended. I like to put a little white chocolate in my creme brulee recipe.
222 posted on 10/06/2003 9:40:09 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: carlo3b
If you have a locarb ping list--please let all locarb freepers know that there is a very good new line of cookies that are carb-controlled!!

SnackWells sugar-free cookies are not carb-free, you have to keep the portions rather small (read the nutrition label, my own maintenance will allow me a three-cookie serving).

The shortbread is delicious. Nice to have with hot tea.

223 posted on 10/06/2003 9:44:44 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: SamAdams76
As men already know, it is women that find Chocolate almost irresistable...so why fight it, capitalize on their weakness....HA!

A TRIPLE TRICK OR TREAT

Make your bed of Chocolate, so you can sleep in it... This is a man's simple recipe for women..1, 2 , 3

1 box cooked chocolate pudding mix (4 serving size)
2 cups milk
1 box devil's food cake mix, unprepared
1/2 cup semisweet chocolate chips
1/2 cup chopped walnuts (optional)
Preheat oven to 350 degrees.
1) Prepare pudding with milk as directed on package.
2) Remove from heat and blend dry cake mix into hot pudding, mixing until it gets very thick and spongy.
3) Pour into greased and floured 9 x 13 inch pan. Sprinkle with chocolate chips and nuts.
Bake for 30 to 35 minutes.
Serve with coffee, and sweet and low... LOLOL, and reap that which you sowed.
By Nature's SEX Chef, Carlo Morelli... "SOUP,SEX, and the SINGLE MAN"


This was posted by carlo3b on another thread. It should answer the question the helpfulness of cakes, cookies and candies. Yum.
224 posted on 10/06/2003 9:47:29 AM PDT by fml
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To: SamAdams76
Thanks for the suggestions.

When I am low-carbing, I really don't feel like I need to snack much either. I think the issue I have is that I crave something other than meats and veggies. Blueberries are a good idea and I recall reading in Atkins' first book that berries are good for you. I might check that out.

I really should also start using olive oil and want to read up on the benefits and possible uses of the product. I know it is highly recommended by all kinds of folks. I do not use oils much in general, but I do use a little bit of butter in the pan before cooking my scrambled eggs in the morning.

As for the cheese, I try and use it sparingly. I want to get a good start eating nothing but good salads, lean meats, and other healthy items. I will try not to eat grains, pastas, potatos, starchy veggies (I am not much of a veggie eater except for corn, and that is not one of the better ones for low-carbing), soft drinks, candies, or anything else high in sugar. The one thing that impressed me about you and your weight loss is that you didn't seem to adhere strictly to the Atkins plan. You mentioned eating bread but not the stuff from the stores. Do you make your own? What would be the difference, and how much of this do you eat in a day?

I do believe the most important thing you are doing is the amount of walking you do. I am a very sedentary person by nature (and by profession), and am looking to get a treadmill that I can use everyday from the comfort of my home. I am excited about this and do hope I can stick to the plan. I have about a hundred pounds (maybe less) that I want to lose and it is going to be a long battle, but it is one I think I can win.

225 posted on 10/06/2003 9:52:36 AM PDT by SaveTheChief
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To: SamAdams76
I know you've been so successful at doing Atkins, you hardly need to hear from me, but I wanted to offer the following:

I had a Doctor who said, "Take out the tape measure when the scale stops moving. You'll discover that you are changing inches instead of pounds."

I've always found it to be true, and I need every teeny bit of encouragement, to keep going.

Compared to what you looked like a year ago, and the NOW picture - you've clearly done a fantastic job and I'm sure your kids will appreciate that they will have their Dad around for longer! Great going!

Truthy
226 posted on 10/06/2003 10:02:30 AM PDT by TruthNtegrity (God bless America, God bless President George W. Bush and God bless our Military!)
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To: Mamzelle
I'll pass on all of that stuff. I am a big believer in natural foods like meat, fish, fruits, veggies, and anything our ancestors ate.

I also believe a lot of today's health issues may be attributed to foods that have been developed in laboratories over the past fifty years. People are quick to point out the dangers of cigarette smoking, but have no clue what all these food additives do to a person's health over time.

No, I do not believe we should have food police, but I think people need to eat with a little more common sense. Natural foods worked for our parents, grandparents, and all who came before us. People also used to be more active and didn't sit at their computers or in front of their televisions all day. If you do the math, then it is easy to see why people (like me) are fat.

227 posted on 10/06/2003 10:03:18 AM PDT by SaveTheChief
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To: carlo3b; All
Anyone know anything about the claims that aspartame releases methonol in the body and that the sweet taste triggers insulin in anticipation of food?....When the food is not provided, the body reacts with hunger prompting more food consumption?
228 posted on 10/06/2003 10:08:17 AM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: SaveTheChief
Gee, creme brulee is made of eggs and cream and sweetener--doesn't seem all that processed to me. You describe what you are eating, and it looks like a locarb/lofat combo--but Atkins requires some fat.

About all the dessert you could have, then, would be a limited amount of fruit.

I'm halfway through my second year of Atkins--hit my target weight after eight months, and have been on maintenance about a year.

229 posted on 10/06/2003 10:13:21 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: Rebelbase
http://www.additivesout.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/documents/AspartameConcerns.htm
230 posted on 10/06/2003 10:14:05 AM PDT by carlo3b (http://www.CookingWithCarlo.com)
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To: SaveTheChief
If you eat this thingy.. you had better start walking now!! :)

Hot White Chocolate Nog With Gingerbread Spice

This white hot chocolate is creamy and full-bodied, thanks to the addition of egg yolks. It's topped with a dollop of whipped cream, grated white chocolate and a sprinkling of spice sugar. Ymmmmmmmmmmmy!

1) Combine cream and 3 tablespoons sugar and whip. Cover and refrigerate.
2_) Meanwhile, place remaining 1/2 cup plus 2 tablespoons sugar in heavy large saucepan.
3) Whisk in egg yolks and milk. Cook over medium heat, stirring almost constantly, until mixture thickens slightly (careful not to boil), about 10 minutes. Add pinch of salt.
4) Reduce heat to very low and add 4 ounces chopped white chocolate a small handful at a time, stirring constantly.
5) When chocolate has melted, remove pan from heat and add 1/2 teaspoon of vanilla extract.
6) Mix spices and 2 teaspoons sugar; reserve.
 Divide hot chocolate between smallish mugs or heatproof glasses. Top with a dollop of whipped cream. Sprinkle some spice-sugar and grated white chocolate over and serve.
Sprinkle cinnamon sugar atop this creamy hot chocolate with an adjustable shaker.
Makes 4 servings
The kids will love it, and if there's any leftover for the adults it tastes great with a shot of brandy.
231 posted on 10/06/2003 10:29:53 AM PDT by carlo3b (http://www.CookingWithCarlo.com)
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To: SamAdams76
I didn't imply anything... you did. I merely said, too much animal protein can be harmful and that one should push away from the table. See my post #215 which coincides with my reasons for not approving of the Atkins diet.
232 posted on 10/06/2003 10:49:24 AM PDT by stanz (Those who don't believe in evolution should go jump off the flat edge of the Earth.)
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To: carlo3b
Generally, I wouldn't bother doing research for anybody but myself. I just don't appreciate having sound advice labeled as a "cliche". As for the success stories...well, see how they're doing in a two to three years. They'll either gain the weight back or, if they stay on the diet, they'll have health problems they didn't have before. There's no substitute for exercise and sensible eating. And that's coming from me, not from the FDA food pyramid.
233 posted on 10/06/2003 11:00:01 AM PDT by stanz (Those who don't believe in evolution should go jump off the flat edge of the Earth.)
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To: carlo3b
57 pounds since May!

Mainly bumping for the recipes here instead of tooting my horn :-)
234 posted on 10/06/2003 11:14:22 AM PDT by VeniVidiVici (There is nothing Democratic about the Democrat party.)
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To: stanz
Whoa... I'm sorry if you thought my response was inferring anything that you posted as trivial. Somehow I think what has happened with too many critics of this method of weight loss is that you/they believe that you posses a better way to do it. I don't argue that exercise and reduced consumption is preferable to any other way (Less-More).. That said, in today's culture, and with 4 decades of history of chronic high weight gain, (approaching obesity) none of the mega touted mind numbing messages of  the" less-more" is working.. no matter how often it gets said, or by whom..

What's next? March folk by gunpoint to the jogging paths, legalized small restaurant portions, how about mouth zippers? THIS METHOD WORKS FOR MILLIONS of people that have dismissed, tried and failed, or simply refuse your worthy thesis.

DID YOU READ THE BOOK?

The first thoughts that comes to my mind when I read the horror stories about some dieter that turned into a gargoyle in the headline is "Which Diet is this" or "Where's the beef in this story" because it is usually someone that attempted an ATKINS TYPE diet and it didn't quite live up to the hype. Finally down in the 7 paragraph if it bothers to mention it at all, is the answer to the most glaring question "DID THEY READ THE ENTIRE BOOK"?

Critics abound citing difficulties, with one or another diet.. Usually the doubters are touting one diet method over another, and most complainers are correct when they caution anyone  that is about to embark on a strange eating concept. All that said, I have one cogent fact.. over 30 years of achievement IT WORKS!

235 posted on 10/06/2003 11:34:08 AM PDT by carlo3b (http://www.CookingWithCarlo.com)
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To: VeniVidiVici
tooting my horn..
DEAD MAN WALKING DESSERT

236 posted on 10/06/2003 11:55:05 AM PDT by carlo3b (http://www.CookingWithCarlo.com)
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To: SamAdams76
Yogurt with real sugar is okay unless you are really on a strict low-carb diet. For me, it's the only real sugar I get all day and I make sure I get it in the morning where I will have all day to burn it off. But some of these all-natural yogurts are made with Splenda. I haven't found any of them in my local supermarkets yet but I hear that Sam's Club carries one of these brands.

Ooooh, once we bought a standard, sugar-sweetened yogurt by mistake, and you can smell the sugar wafting up from the little tub the instant you open it. Yuk!

We get Kroger's (a.k.a. Fred Meyer or QFC or several others) "Lite" yogurt. It's sweetened with NutraSweet. I sprinkle unsweetened wheat puffs on it (or sometimes wheat germ) for texture. It makes a nice, quick breakfast.

237 posted on 10/06/2003 11:59:15 AM PDT by jennyp (http://lowcarbshopper.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: SamAdams76
"Olive oil is probably one of the most important foods humans can eat. The health benefits of olive oil are too numerous to mention. But don't take my word for it, run a Google search with the keywords "olive oil" and "health benefits" and you will be inundated with lengthy articles."

Sam, you can eat all the "extry-virge" you want. It's like mother's milk for the Atkins diet. I buy the stuff by the gallon, and it goes in anything I like and makes it better. For instance, when I buy a big jar of stuffed olives, I open it up and pour out all the water/brine. Then I fill up the jar with extra-virgin. The taste of olives in their own oil is beyond description. You see them served this way in Mediterranean regions. A side benny is that, in oil, the olives don't need refrigeration. You can just leave them out on the counter and grab a bite when you feel like it.

I "cut" all the commercial salad dressings I buy with equal parts dressing and extry-virge. They taste far better and last twice as long.

BTW, my fave brand is SULTAN, from Turkey. $14 a gallon at the international market. Heady stuff.

Michael

238 posted on 10/06/2003 12:08:10 PM PDT by Wright is right! (Have a profitable day!)
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To: Unmarked Package
I copied it off and will look it over. Many thanks. Maryxxx
239 posted on 10/06/2003 12:24:27 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD is still in control!)
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To: stanz
As for the success stories...well, see how they're doing in a two to three years. They'll either gain the weight back or, if they stay on the diet, they'll have health problems they didn't have before. There's no substitute for exercise and sensible eating. And that's coming from me, not from the FDA food pyramid.

Does 3 years, 50 weeks count? :-)

JennyP's numbers since going on a low-carb diet
Date Mos.
into diet
Weight BMI Total HDL LDL Total/HDL Triglycerides
10/20/99 0 163 24.8 unknown - wish I had tested beforehand
4/21/00 6 147 22.3 244 76 158 3.2 48
3/20/01 17 156 23.7 241 74 149 3.3 90
5/15/02 31 154 23.4 219 78 128 2.8 66
6/09/03 44 141 21.4 233 77 143 3.0 66
10/06/03 47.5 140 21.3          

Let's see... no kidney stones, my spine looks fine, my constant heartburn is still a thing of the past, my heart hasn't exploded (see triglyceride numbers above). And the Physicians' Committee for Responsible Medicine is circulating letters to hospitals pleading with them to come out against Atkins because some vague nasty thing will happen to people like me if we don't repent & go on a vegan diet soon. Seriously, what's not to like?

240 posted on 10/06/2003 12:34:17 PM PDT by jennyp (http://lowcarbshopper.bestmessageboard.com)
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