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Evidence Aquits Clovis People Of Ancient Killings, Archaeologists Say
University Of Washington ^ | 2-25-2003 | Joel Schwartz

Posted on 02/25/2003 4:46:54 PM PST by blam

Contact: Joel Schwarz
joels@u.washington.edu
206-543-2580
University of Washington

Evidence acquits Clovis people of ancient killings, archaeologists say

Archaeologists have uncovered another piece of evidence that seems to exonerate some of the earliest humans in North America of charges of exterminating 35 genera of Pleistocene epoch mammals. The Clovis people, who roamed large portions of North America 10,800 to 11,500 years ago and left behind highly distinctive and deadly fluted spear points, have been implicated in the exterminations by some scientists.

Now researchers from the University of Washington and Southern Methodist University who examined evidence from all suggested Clovis-age killing sites conclude that there is no proof that people played a significant role in causing the extinction of Pleistocene mammals in the New World. Climate change, not humans, was the culprit.

"Of the 76 localities with asserted associations between people and now-extinct Pleistocene mammals, we found only 14 (12 for mammoth, two for mastodon) with secure evidence linking the two in a way suggestive of predation," write Donald Grayson of the UW and David Meltzer of SMU in the current issue of the Journal of World Prehistory. "This result provides little support for the assertion that big-game hunting was a significant element in Clovis-age subsistence strategies. This is not to say that such hunting never occurred: we have clear evidence that proboscideans (mammoths and mastodons) were taken by Clovis groups. It just did not occur very often."

To locate Clovis-age sites that suggested hunting of now-extinct mammals Grayson and Meltzer used FAUNMAP, an electronic database that documents the distribution of mammals in North America during the last 40,000 years. The search excluded areas above the North American ice sheet and sites that were pre- and post-Clovis because it is the Clovis people who have been targeted by proponents of the so-called "overkill" hypothesis.

This search turned up 75 locations in the United States and one in Canada that Grayson and Meltzer evaluated. Forty-seven of the sites did not exhibit minimally acceptable evidence showing an association between artifacts and extinct mammals. Most of these sites were rejected because they were not sufficiently described or documented.

"In many cases there is no published material, and when something is not published we are not able to weigh evidence of a human connection," said Grayson. "In other cases there was just an anecdotal suggestion of artifacts or remains, or there were very sketchy drawings."

Of the remaining 29 sites only 14 survived closer study. To determine this, the researchers looked for settings in which artifacts and animal remains were so closely associated that there was little doubt that their relationship was not accidental. In addition, Grayson and Meltzer searched published evidence for signs of human hunting and butchering and processing. This included cases where projectile points were found among bones or where there was solid evidence of human-caused bone breakage or cut marks.

Mammoth and mastodon bones were the most commonly found remains at the 14 confirmed predation sites, but horse, camel and bison bones also were identified. However, Grayson said there was no evidence that the two horse bones and one camel bone, all from extinct genera, came from animals that had been hunted by humans. There was quite a bit of evidence of human predation of bison, but this genus did not become extinct.

The survey produced no evidence that humans hunted the 33 other genera of extinct animals, which also include sloths, tapirs, bears and sabertooth cats. In fact, only 15 genera can be shown to have survived beyond 12,000 years ago and into Clovis times, said Grayson.

"There is absolutely no evidence that Clovis people were involved with 33 of the extinct genera. Where's the spear point sticking out of a camel or a ground sloth? If you can kill a mammoth you can kill a lumbering ground sloth. Clovis people absolutely did not chase these now-extinct animals relentlessly across the North American landscape," he said.

"The bottom line is that we need to stop wasting our time looking at people as the cause of these extinctions. We suspect the extinctions were driven by climate change. We need to know what aspects of climate change were involved. We have to tackle this species by species, one at a time, and look at the interaction of each species with the climate and vegetation on the ground."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: District of Columbia
KEYWORDS: archaeologists; archaeology; bison; catastrophism; clovis; clovisimpact; cloviskillings; davidmeltzer; evidence; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; haidagwaii; history; maunderminimum; nagpra; pleistocene; preclovis; precolumbian; solarflares; youngerdryas
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To: blam
Yes I did- and they are flawed.
81 posted on 02/26/2003 10:28:35 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: Burkeman1
"Yes I did- and they are flawed."

Okay, but I put my money on Professor Baillie

82 posted on 02/26/2003 10:45:04 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
"Blam- Mayan civilization was just peaking at 540 and flourished for another 200 to 300 years at least."

Found this little tid-bit that mentions a decline in specifically 540AD.

"Tikal was one of the winners in the new order, making a strategic alliance with Teotihuacan, the major power in the Mexican highlands, and rising to become the dominant regional power. Then, with Teotihuacan's decline around 540AD, Tikal entered a long hiatus, which only ended in 692 with the accession of ruler Ah Cacau Caan Chac.

It was during Ah Cacau's reign and that of his successors that Tikal reached its peak of building activity, artistic achievement and population. Numbers rose from an estimated 45,000 over the surrounding 50 square miles to as many as 70,000. Then, in the early 9th Century, Tikal entered its final decline. Building stopped and the quality of its ceramics coarsened. The population collapsed to a mere 3,000 to 4,000 people who looted the tombs of former rulers and dumped their refuse in dark corners of abandoned palaces. By 1000 AD, Tikal was left entirely to the encroaching forest. Why?

83 posted on 02/26/2003 10:55:27 PM PST by blam
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To: Burkeman1
See post #83, I meant to send it to you.
84 posted on 02/26/2003 10:57:34 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Uh- building throughout multiple Mayan city states (not just the two you mentioned) was at it's peak from about 450 to 650AD. Not to mention China and India at the same time which were far more advanced than the Meso Americans and also flourishing societies. And let's not forget central asia (kazakistan) which had a strong culture. You seem to place some mythic significance upon 540AD. Western Roman civ was in decline for two centuries. Certainly natural disasters can push a civ already in decline over the edge but Rome was but a shell of itself- split in two and not even a real empire in 540AD. The dark ages for Western civ was well under way by then.
85 posted on 02/27/2003 12:11:14 AM PST by Burkeman1
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To: Burkeman1
"You seem to place some mythic significance upon 540AD. "

Nothing mythic, hard data. The trees worldwide recorded something catastrophic at that time +- 4.0 years. I submit that the Dark Ages were so named because it was dark. A dust veil around the entire earth.

86 posted on 02/27/2003 9:26:22 AM PST by blam
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Comment #87 Removed by Moderator

To: gcochran
Your post was most timely. After posting on this thread several days ago I picked up a copy of "Guns, Germs, and Steel" in papperback at the airport. This book very convincingly outlines the theory that megafauna were exterminated by modern humans as they spread over the planet.

Certain shades of the green left have much of their ideology invested in the notion of the pristine savage as "caretakers" of the land, as being "at one" with nature, that tribal bands of hunter gatherers- kneww things about the natural world- "secret things"- that no modern evil capitalist whitey could ever know. Well this book pretty much shatters these lies and myths. Early man was a mass butcher of mega fauna (and killed far more than they could consume or store.) Further- hunter gatherers were not peaceful. Murder was most likely the leading cause of death among males of such early societies.

88 posted on 03/02/2003 9:48:03 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: blam
The "dark ages" were not called that until modern times. People in 550AD didn't walk around and say- gee it looks dark. Modern scholars applied that term to describe the loss of learning and knowledge from most of Western and Northern Europe when the Romans began to pull back. For example- English historians pinpoint the start of the "dark ages" in Britian at 411AD- when the Romans left. And even though most historians would argue the dark ages ended around 1000AD (this is an argument) and the Medevil period began- Britian did not attain the same level of technology, adminstration, and economy it had enjoyed under Rome until the late 16th century.
89 posted on 03/02/2003 9:59:55 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; SunkenCiv; 24Karet; 2Jedismom; 4ConservativeJustices; ...
Busy night, eh?
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest
-- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

90 posted on 10/09/2004 5:27:00 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("All I have seen teaches me trust the Creator for all I have not seen." -- Emerson)
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update:



91 posted on 04/02/2006 2:15:13 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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Just updating the GGG information, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

92 posted on 03/02/2007 9:22:38 AM PST by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Thursday, February 19, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


93 posted on 01/28/2012 7:19:59 AM PST by SunkenCiv (FReep this FReepathon!)
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The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes: Flood, Fire, and Famine in the History of Civilization The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes:
Flood, Fire, and Famine
in the History of Civilization

by Richard Firestone,
Allen West, and
Simon Warwick-Smith


94 posted on 07/05/2013 12:31:50 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (McCain or Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: 75thOVI; agrace; aimhigh; Alice in Wonderland; AndrewC; aragorn; aristotleman; Avoiding_Sulla; ...
Note: this topic is from 2/25/2003. Thanks blam.



95 posted on 07/05/2013 12:36:55 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (McCain or Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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Just an update.

96 posted on 07/05/2013 12:37:45 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (McCain or Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: Burkeman1; blam; no-to-illegals; SunkenCiv; All

I often wondered why the Carolingian Empire of Charlemagne did not continue to flourish after his death. then I read a book about food which reported that in Europe in the 100 years after his death there were 33 famines some of which lasted 2 or 3 years. Examining my volcano encyclopedia I found several very large volcanic eruptions for that period, especially in the Far East. There was climate change in that period which caused Ergot of rye in northern Europe to kill many people, and in the south, Arab import of barberry bushes which is the alternate host to wheat rust plus climate decimated wheat crops. For the 540 event, Google Cassiodorus who may have described results of a major meteoric event, or perhaps a volcanic event.


97 posted on 07/05/2013 11:43:49 PM PDT by gleeaikin
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To: Alas Babylon!; Bernard Marx; blam; SunkenCiv; All

A book by Firestone, et al which Sunken Civ has posted numerous times explains in great detail how probably several boloids may have crashed into the Northern Hemisphere and created Lake Michigan, and also the Carolina Bays, as well as similar circles in other areas, all of which have an axis along the ellipse which points in the general direction of Lake Michigan. My theory is that crashing into the great glaciers would have caused huge blocks of ice to scatter across the land leaving these elliptical ponds.

I see that Sunken Civ has finally posted a Firestone book, but I think the one I read was earlier, perhaps he can post that one as well. A very good read for the amateur science lover. We really need to verify the ages on a lot more modest size meteor craters The Barringer crater is actually small compared to some of the others which have probably influenced human history. For example the crater in the Iraq Marshes from around 2,000 bc, which no doubt influence many groups in the middle east. Also much larger craters which were formed in Argentina a little earlier which perhaps caused the beginning of the First Intermediate Period in Egypt which Ipuwer described so dramatically.

Three significant areas which I believe need much more work and open minds are dating craters from boloids and volcanoes of significant size, extensively searching underwater to the depth of 400 feet, and digging in areas where exploration stopped because a Clovis layer was found. I believe that many answers to hominid history will be found with those actions.

Incidentally, my interest in these subjects dates back more than 60 years. As a small child I remember my father showing me the National Geographic article on the birth of Paracutin volcano in Mexico in I believe 1944. Several years later, I think in the 5th grade I did a multi color cutaway drawing of a volcano for science which got me an A. Not long after that archeology and anthropology piqued my interest and of course it all continues to this day.


98 posted on 07/06/2013 12:12:29 AM PDT by gleeaikin
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To: gleeaikin

Thanks gleeaikin. Always look forward to your interesting info.


99 posted on 07/06/2013 4:58:46 PM PDT by no-to-illegals (Scrutinize our government and Secure the Blessing of Freedom and Justice)
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