Evidence Aquits Clovis People Of Ancient Killings, Archaeologists Say

University Of Washington ^ | 2-25-2003 | Joel Schwartz

[Alas Babylon!]

Yes! Everyone, check out this map that shows the world-wide sea levels that would exist if the sea levels were 300 feet lower than today (meaning during the last Ice Age): Global Sea Level Map

Take a good look at the Carribean and Gulf Coast regions. Also, the North Atlantic. Blam, the Solutrean and Clovis cultures may be related as well. Could Cro Magnons following the North Atlantic ice pack in search of seals and giant auks have made it to North America? With sea levels down so low, the distance appears to be not so daunting.

[ladyinred]

Yikes, I am a Clovis person. So glad to feel vindicated! :-)

[Alas Babylon!]

Well that's interesting. My understanding is that Southern Africa didn't have many people in it until historic times. It was sparsly populated with a Capoid people, the Bushmen, who are not black, but a dusty yellow color and not Negroid. The Bantus, a true Negroid people, didn't arrive until about 1500-2000 years ago. However, what about the South Asian megafauna?

[Sawdring]

How long have you been researching Anthropology and Archaeology?

[strela]

When I need to put meat on the table I'm going after small, less dangerous creatures than mastadon. If I need to bag a bunch of meat, slow-moving ground sloth look out!

Awwww, its like killing Bambi!

[blam]

"! Everyone, check out this map that shows the world-wide sea levels that would exist if the sea levels were 300 feet lower than today (meaning during the last Ice Age): Global Sea Level Map"

Yes. I have it bookmarked, one of my favorites. Some things to notice, no Persian Gulf, landlocked Red Sea, land bridges across the Mediterranean.....and if you'll look real close around the Bahamas, you can see..impact craters?

Now, all the articles I have read regarding the Ice Age say the ocean levels declined by 300-500 feet. If you add another 100-200 loss of water to that map, you can see that the Gulf Of Mexico probably becomes landlocked.

My theory is that the 'underwater city' off the coast of Cuba was in fact built on the coast of a much dessicated Gulf Of Mexico then later the land bridges burst and re flooded the Gulf putting the city waaay underwater.

[blam]

"It was sparsly populated with a Capoid people, the Bushmen."

What is a Capoid? I read that they were Mongoloid. The San Bushmen are physically different than other people everywhere. The males have a perpetual semi-erect penis and the females have a unique skin 'apron' over the genetial area. The Ancient Egyptians recorded this difference too.

[blam]

"How long have you been researching Anthropology and Archaeology?"

My son gave me a book 12-25-90 titled, Our Kind, by Marvin Harris (bless his soul)...and I've been going at it since then. No formal studies, mind you.

[Sawdring]

Good map, too bad they didn't overlay the presumed glacial ice of the period.

[merak]

What nonsense. Walking five miles a day isn't all that hard, and that's enough to cross the continent in two years. The paleoIndians had generations - you think they were amputees or something?

We're talking about wanting to exterminate a whole species of animal off of North America. Now, it would be one thing if Indian ancestors had ever spread out the way we do and occupied every square inch of the teritory, but they didn't do that. They lived in little bands.

Suppose that I get together with 200 people who hate turtles and devise a plan to eliminate turtles from North America. By your reckoning I and my band could walk across North Amrica killing every turtle we see in about two years, but is that going to get the job done? Won't the turtles just repopulate the areas we pass through as soon as we're gone?

[Alas Babylon!]

The Capoid include the San:

CAPOID SUBSPECIES (Khoisanid)

Southern African subspecies of Man, including the Khoid (Hottentot) and Sanid (Bushman) races. The Khoikhoi ('men of men') number about 40,000, mainly in Namibia and the northwestern Cape Province, and are distinguished by their yellowish skin, narrow skull, and prominent malars. Historically, they have regarded themselves as superior to the San.

[Centurion2000]

How about these babies. There are 500,000 of these along the east coast of the US.

IIRC they are also in far north Europe and Alaska as well.

[Centurion2000]

I've done my share of hunting and when I put myself in the place of a hunter armed only with a stone-tipped spear, I reach a certain conclusion. When I need to put meat on the table I'm going after small, less dangerous creatures than mastadon. If I need to bag a bunch of meat, slow-moving ground sloth look out!

I'm of the same mind as well .... think about hunting Grizzly bears .... now thing about doing it armed only with spears. NO THANKS.

[blam]

"IIRC they are also in far north Europe and Alaska as well."

Those circles were caused by freezing--thawing--freezing, etc. Weren't they?

[Bernard Marx]

No, megafauna did NOT die off everywhere. It remains, even to this day, in Africa and South Asia. The elephant, rhinocerous, hippopotamus, etc. all still live.

You are correct. Your question about their survival in areas where humans evolved is also very interesting. I disagree about Australia and possibly some other areas, though. There's strong evidence humans have been present in Australia for upwards of 60,000 years. That means they coexisted with the megafauna for at least 30,000 years. As for human presence in South Africa, mentioned in another post, this remains a very big and complicated ball of unwinding twine.

I still maintain there is absolutely no firm evidence for any of the three main theories: climate, human predation or disease. It's all just speculation.

I'm a little tired of humans being bashed as the cause of all worldly problems and disasters but I know we can be nasty customers, too. I think I view humans and human nature pretty realistically (I'm a conservative, after all). The American Indians used to hunt buffalo by driving huge numbers of them off cliffs. They used only a small amount of the meat and skins and left the rest to rot. Maybe the proto-Indians did the same with Mastadons and other large creatures. But evidence of the buffalo massacres exists. Does anyone know of similar evidence for megafauna? I'm not aware of it.

I located a couple of interesting sites that discuss the mystery pretty objectively:

http://www.cpluhna.nau.edu/Biota/megafauna_extinctions.htm

and http://www.austmus.gov.au/factsheets/megafauna.htm

If I had to choose one of the theories only I'd go with climate change. Animals adapted to glacial conditions probably didn't do so well in a suddenly warming world. But there are some hole in that theory too. It's an interesting discussion.

[Torie]

It all depends on the effort success ratio the folks had in killing the beasts. If they didn't have the tools to do it efficiently, then the thesis holds.

[Bernard Marx]

Agree. Having had a few innings with grizzlies I'm of the opinion large bears were a major factor in where early migrants to the Americas put ashore. Most came in boats, not across the land bridge. They skirted the shorline when sea levels were much lower than today. We'll find much more evidence of these migrations when and if we develop the means to search for it underwater. A very ancient skeleton was recently found on one of the islands off the coast of California.

Anyone who's read the journals of Lewis & Clark knows that grizzlies were a very serious problem to American travelers even in the early 19th century. Mountain Man Jedediah Smith had his scalp torn nearly off by a grizzly. When the surgeon sat him down on a log and sewed it back on, he got it a little skewed in his haste. Jed was never again seen without a hat pulled low over his forehead.

[johnny7]

Animals adapted to glacial conditions probably didn't do so well in a suddenly warming world.

IMHO, those clovis-speared people didn't have the numbers nor mobilty to wipe out entire species of animals.

I go with climate change. Either a solar flare-up or a switch in the poles.

[Burkeman1]

Speculative. But Mega fauna extinction coincides with inroduction of modern humans all over the world.

[Burkeman1]

Not like that. There were bands of 20 too 200 hundred humans hunting for a couple of thousand of years. They drove mega fauna over cliffs or killed them in controlled burns. That human existence all over the world coincideds with the extinctin of megas fauna should end the debate.