Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Becky
SD
Becky
I didn't confuse the issues. You made a swipe and I straightened it out. You brought in the issue in your prior post by way of inferrance that I think it wrong for people to pray for one another (the same language you use to defend the sin of communing with the dead). So, let's not just let you get away with miscoloring what's happening here.
When a fellow Christian dies and is suffering the transition of Purgatory, we might very well pray that their visit is brief.
So God causes his people to suffer upon death? Scripture please. My bible says absent in the flesh, present with God. One can't be present with God and imprisoned in purgatory for the cleansing of sin. And if one dies and puts on incorruption as the Bible says, there is nothing corrupt to be removed by a purgatory. Multiple problems you have in this lie of the devil. Your clergy dreamed up this fecal refuse through a spirit of their own. Tell us, if God were to put anyone in a purgatory, and he deamed they needed to be there for a specific period of time for the job to be done, what are his criterion. And how does the RCC somehow know that praying for people who need to be there for x amount of time can get that time prayed down? You treat it like a need and a purification for ten seconds then turn it into a prison sentence in the next breath. If it takes ten minutes in God's time to cook grits by God's determination, then God must alter the universe to get someone out of purgatory early. If he can spend the energy to do that, why is a purgatory needed when he can just speak incorruptable nature into being? Yeah, right, the more you think about it, the more like a pile of dung purgatory sounds. It's moronicism run rampant combined with Blasphemies. And it's a lie of the Devil.
You didn't know what you were talking about then either, so I don't see how it will help.
Oh, really? I didn't know that every OT reference in the old testament that you guys use to prop up purgatory refers to hell or the grave either by inferance or direct implication. Never once in the Bible is purgatory mentioned as a third state. God says if you have sin, you go to hell. If you don't have sin, you go to heaven. That's the word. You create a grey area that plays to worthiness - which is a crock in itself. Then you have a whole system of what kind of sins do what and cause one to enter purgatory or hell. Then you want to say when one gets to purgatory, they've already earned heaven, they just have to earn their way in now through penitential torture of somekind - a reflection of the other blasphemous things the RCC has dreamt up. God didn't give mankind a free gift so that he could exact a pound of flesh from every man at death. And there isn't the first scripture that backs up this fraud.
Purgatory is a "work" because God never answers our prayers. That's what you just said. God can have no mercy on anyone, He will do what he wants on His own timeframe and never listens to the cries of His people for mercy. Especially when they ask for mercy not for themselves, but for others.
"Thy will be done, in heaven..." These words sound familiar? God acts in his time and on his rules - in his way. Funny, ya'll beat up on those 'proddies' that play name it and claim it, then turn right around and tell people that if they pray for someone in purgatory, their time *will* be reduced. If one pays for a mass for someone in purgatory, their time *will* be reduced. You don't deal with the fact that if they belong there for a time determined by God that God can magically alter that time just because of what you want. Again, that's if you believe the lie to begin with. Let's give you a little time to come up with some holy fourish to confuse that and take the mind off the obviety of the truth. I'm sure you can do it. Purgatory is a lie of the devil. And your name it & claim it garbage associated with it is a lie of the devil. And the RCC abuse of Widows and Children through this will be dealt with in the end by God. There is much to be answered for.
You're funny. Why do we bother to petition the Lord with prayer? Every day on FR there are threads where someone has cancer or is in the hospital and we pray that God will bring them quick relief. Is this pointless as well? According to your logic God will do as He wills. Our prayer can have no effect. God turns his ear away from us and refuses to hear our pleas.
The only thing worse than mistating the truth is being dumb enough to waller in it. Yet there you are. People can pray whatever they want. God is under no strictures to honor it if it is not in His will. God is in no way obligated to hear anyone that is in disobedience to him. He is under no obligation to give ear to prayers regarding nonexistant things or places (ie purgatory). But it's a good distraction for people isn't it.. Getting their prayers on things they can't effect and that are pointless instead of having them wasted on such things as their lives and the lives of others. Getting them to pray to dead people instead of to God. Getting them to believe in your system of foulups and pennance instead of God's system of repentance and righteousness. You add up all the little screwups and you have people pointed at the wrong places for the wrong reasons and praying for the wrong things. You've invalidated God.
Do the other Christians here agree that God can not be moved by our prayers?
Why didn't you just ask about Sola scriptura - If you want to twist.. at least your being consistant.
You want to take something out of context and apply it. You need to apply it for what it says. You abused it. Don't whine at me if I'm good at shooting down lie pigeons.
SD did a good job on his post with Mr.C, and it grew into a lot of interesting subjects don't you agree?
If your lurking, and not allowing your self to participate for what ever reason, if you would care to answer my survey question, P-=2739, feel free to use Freepmail. Later, JH (^g^)
I didn't confuse the issues. You made a swipe and I straightened it out. You brought in the issue in your prior post by way of inferrance that I think it wrong for people to pray for one another (the same language you use to defend the sin of communing with the dead). So, let's not just let you get away with miscoloring what's happening here.
I made no mention of praying to the dead. I was talking about praying to help fellow Christians in Purgatory. I didn't bring the issue in, you did because you misunderstood what I was talking about.
And if one dies and puts on incorruption as the Bible says, there is nothing corrupt to be removed by a purgatory.
For the second time today, you have just described Purgatory in passing. This is it. It is the putting on of incorruption. I wish that some day you would at least understand that which you reject.
And how does the RCC somehow know that praying for people who need to be there for x amount of time can get that time prayed down?
...then turn right around and tell people that if they pray for someone in purgatory, their time *will* be reduced. If one pays for a mass for someone in purgatory, their time *will* be reduced.
Once again, you fail to have the slightest understanding. There is no "time" associated with the process of Purgatory. Folks aren't guaranteed less "time" in Purgatory for specific actions. You simply are unteachable. You will not listen to what I say and feel you have the privledge to bloviate all over this forum about things that ARE NOT SO. I really wish at some moment before you die that you take the time to understand at least one thing about the religion that you hate so much. You hate a caricature and you will be held responsible for it.
And the saddest thing is that good Catholic folks everywhere will pray for your "learning curve" in Purgatory to be gentle and all of your Protestant friends will have abandoned you when you most need to be a part of the Communion of Saints.
SD
Becky
Thanks smarty,.......why don't you go tend to your horses?(^z^)
My answer #2844:
Well, let's see. The idea of people praying for each other doesn't bother me in the slightest and never has. It's your doctrine of talking to dead people in violation of God's laws that is a bother to me. Blasphemy has a tendancy to bring out a really bad side in me.
Now, you are the one that tied the two things together in an attempt to confuse the two issues. You blamed me for it in an attempt to make it look as though I'm off topic or whatever you thought your point was. Try truth, it works better. And you don't need confusion and fibs to make truth work.
Oh goody. I love being caled a liar. Especially when I have the proof and Truth on my side. Let's go to the film, the full film, not the abbridged Havoc version.
Post 2789 Havoc responds to me
Me:Exactly! That's what Purgatory is. It is the change we go through.
Havoc:Uh, no. Purgatory is a work performed by the person aided by prayers of others - that's by definition of the RCC.
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Note Havoc first mentions prayers -- in the context of our prayers helping those in Purgatory. Which is the subject we were discussing.
Post 2792, I respond
I know the idea of Christians praying for each other is abhorent to you, but why is it I don't believe you know what the Catholic Church teaches?
Havoc here confuses things when I talk of Christians praying for each other. Even though he is the one who just talked about it. He thinks for some reason I am talking about praying with the dead saints.
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Now Post 2844 Havoc responds
Well, let's see. The idea of people praying for each other doesn't bother me in the slightest and never has. It's your doctrine of talking to dead people in violation of God's laws that is a bother to me. Blasphemy has a tendancy to bring out a really bad side in me.
Seems to me that he just brought up the "blashphemy" of Catholics praying to our dead saints. Or he thinks that we pray "to" people in Purgatory, instead of "for" them. Either way confusion has entered in by the name of Havoc.
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2851 I respond
Once again you speak from ignorance. Praying for the dead in Purgatory had nothing to do with praying with the "dead" saints in Heaven. Once again you confuse issues.
And here I point out the confuison Havoc has brought in.
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In post 2870, JHavard picks up on Havoc's confusion and asks me all about Catholics praying to their dead saints.
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In post 2875 I say
Jim, Havoc joined these two issues together and they should not be.
And we return to where we are.
I leave it to the good folks here to judge who threw in a different issue to confuse things.
SD
SD, I doubt seriously if any of us are going to go back through all those post and make a decision on who did what to whom when, But it does bring to point that to most Non's, the word Purgatory and pennants, prayers to the dead, for the dead, all seem to run together for me anyway, and if I don't believe in praying for the dead, I sure don't believe in praying to the dead, or to God for those who have already missed their chance.
If there was one bit of Biblical support for it, that would be different
JH
No, you made a moronic charge about something that you said offended me. And I shot it down and gave an example of something that does offend me. You lept off the cliff side with it. And I'm not wishing you a soft landing. I'm just advising that your attacking me on the way down by throwing your parachute at me. When you hit bottom, you might want to take inventory of what you broke.
For the second time today, you have just described Purgatory in passing. This is it. It is the putting on of incorruption. I wish that some day you would at least understand that which you reject.
"The Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the sacred scriptures and the ancient traditions of the Fathers taught in Sacred Councils, and very recently in this Ecumenical Synod, that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the alter" (Council of Trent sen 26).
"The mass is the propitiary sacrifice for the living and the dead, and the souls in purgatory are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the alter" (Council of Trent Ses. 25, Can. 30)
"The mass is the unbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ" (Baltimore Catechism Q. 363)
"When God forgives us, he forgives thoroughly and asks nothing in return...Though God does not demand that we make up for our sins, there is a necessity within ourselves to do so.." Wilhelm 289-90
"If at our death we have not yet made up for our sins, we must make up for them in the next life, by passing through the state called purgatory." Wilhelm 291
"We cannot make up to Christ, for he has totally forgiven and forgotten our sin, but we can make up to him in other people.." Wilhelm 307.
"Theology has no complete answer as to how, or even whether anyone may be damned forever.." Wilhelm 289
"Like 'heaven' or 'hell', the word purgatory refers to a place and a state. Catholics believe that purgatory exists to purge those souls who are not yet pure enough for heaven and its vision of God but who have not died in a state of serious (mortal) sin. Such near-saints must undergo the pain of intense longing of God until they have paid the debt of temporal punishment due them because of their sins on earth.. In a word, purgatory exits to make saints who will be ready for the purity of God's presence. If one does not succeed in becomming a saint on earth but yet escapes eternal hell, he is purified in purgatory.." Rosten 47.
"Purgatory is the state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins." -Baltimore Catechism.
citations:
Wilhelm, Anthony J. "Christ Among Us: A Modern Presentation of the Catholic Faith" New York: Paulist Press, 1973
Nihil Obstat: Rev. Thomas G Lumpkin, Censor Librorum 4.4.72
Imprimatur: John Cardinal Dearden, Archbishop of Detroit 8.11.72
Rosten, Leo Calvin "Religions of America" New York: Simon and Schuster, 1975.
Now my response:
Rev. 14:13:" And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow * them."
Eccl.12:7:" Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
(see also Luke 16:22-31 ", Philip. 1:23)
Psalm 49:7 "None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: [8] (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever:) "
(see also II Tim. 2:12; Acts 10:43; Eph. 2:8-9).
Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"
Hebrews 10:14 "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
Romans 8: 1-2 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Colossians 2:13 "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"
The Scriptures are clear. Jesus died for all our sins and is faithful to forgive that which we repent of and do no more. The wages of Sin is death. But those who remain obedient, walking a righteous path before the Lord, truly walk the narrow path. In following the will of God one does not sin and seeks rather to root out all temptation to do so. One cannot be saved and ignorant of sin in their lives. So dying in sin is an act of willful disobedience. Sin condemns us; but, Christ sets us free. Once set free, there is no longer condemnation as long as we walk after the Lord's spirit and will. Those who fail to walk after the Spirit and will of God have no such protection from condemnation nor any promise of Heaven.
If Jesus forgives all, there is nothing a Christian has left to be free of at death if he is truly Christian. If One is not Christian at death, they are sulfer jockeys. That is the word of God. No in between anywhere in the Bible - none. Sin condemns to Hell, Sinlessness grants heaven. No mention of purgatory, no such thing as purgatory. Purgatory is a LIE of the DEVIL. It is propounded to make sinners think they have a chance if they just give the church money and con others into wasting their time praying for a dead person who is already judged by the word.
This might sound silly to you, but please give me your definition of "in his kingdom", then I will answer.
This might sound silly to you, but please give me your definition of "in his kingdom", then I will answer.
This wasn't a loaded question, I just thought "God's Kingdom" was more of a generic term, it's what most would call Heaven, or the final place of rewards for the saved.
Lol, I know why you wanted to be sure what I meant.(^g^)
This might sound silly to you, but please give me your definition of "in his kingdom", then I will answer.
What difference does that make? Here is the question simplified, "How many of us believe God already knows?"
Your test papers are to be turned in before you go home, are you going to vote? Lol
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You don't know where and when the term "Roman Catholic Church" originated? Here's a hint: the Roman Catholic Church doesn't exist. ;-) (pssst: it's called "The Catholic Church")
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