Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
You are right. I kinda glossed over this the first time. This is indeed a wonderful question.
SD
Context schmontext. What about Mr C?
SD
That's true, you did not mention time. But doesn't the Catholic Church teach that a person will indeed spend an enormous amount of time in Purgatory?
If you scroll down to the section on duration here you will see that your traditions do indeed teach that souls will spend "time" in Purgatory, some until the Final Judgement.
IV. DURATION AND NATUREDuration
The very reasons assigned for the existence of purgatory make for its passing character. We pray, we offer sacrifice for souls therein detained that "God in mercy may forgive every fault and receive them into the bosom of Abraham" (Const. Apost., P. G., I col. 1144); and Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. XXI, cap.xiii and xvi) declares that the punishment of purgatory is temporary and will cease, at least with the Last Judgment. "But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both noow and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment."
That seems like a long time to me.
-ksen
SD, if a person, has to pay some sort of payment, be it money, pennants, goods, pledges, or anything that only that person can give, then it is a work by that person being paid to their religious leader for results, and yes, it is being performed then by the person.
Here, when you post, you don't let God be God.
BigMack
Havoc meant(or at least I read it) that it was a work being performed by the person in Purgatory. this is what I was objecting to. The person being purified is acted upon in Purgatory, is not an actor.
There is no payment required to get someone out of Purgatory. People can do good works and ask that the effects of the good work be applied to someone in Purgatory, but they are not required. Payment of money directly or indirectly for "indulgences" was stopped as an abuse.
SD
Please, I would like a response on a question that I think is important.
Yes or No is fine, or a comment if you feel like it, but I do need a majority response. Thank You in advance. JH
The amount of Purging needed depends upon the person involved. "No one will get out until the last penny is paid."
Mother Theresa may have needed a brief rinsing after her life, but if Timothy McVeigh truly repented he can expect a very "long" process of Purgation.
If you scroll down to the section on duration here you will see that your traditions do indeed teach that souls will spend "time" in Purgatory, some until the Final Judgement.
Souls in Purgatory are not in "time" as it passes here. The amount of "time" that passes between your death and final judgment is almost a crazy question. Those in Purgatory will be aware of what is happening to them and it may indeed seem to take "time" but we can not say for sure.
The Vatican once gave out indulgences in units of time, and this led many to believe that there was a one-to-one correspondance between time in indulgences and "time off" of Purgatory.
I don't think we can really speak of "time" at all after death, but we often have to use such terms anyway.
SD
BigMack
Big Mack, that sounds like a fortune cookie. What are you saying? What in my story of Mr C misrepresents the process a person who believes in the ultimate authority of the Bible would go through?
SD
SD
So in essence they are saying, Well, it's up to you, if you don't think they are worth doing anything for, you must know much better then the Church, cough, cough, cough, but remember, wink wink, you aren't required by law to do anything for those you love, guilt guilt. (^g^)
Yes. God knows all.
LOL Actually it's more like "There are teams of monks and nuns in far off places praying night and day for the deliverance of all of the poor souls in Purgatory. They're going to pray for your loved ones anyway, don't you think you could spare a few cents a day so they can afford to heat their porridge up to 'tepid'?"
SD
Aahh, I think that is where I got that idea from. Thanks for the clarification. I thought I remembered hearing or reading about millions of years in Puragtory for some people, must have been when I was studying about Luther.
-ksen
You are kidding, right? You envy those who "booze and womanize"?????
Lol, "tepid" yes, but warm, no way, let them hold it over the free fire God provides for all those foolish enough to believe in Purgatory. (^g^)
Here is the passage:
Heb 6:4-6: "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."
When will we all learn to read passages from the scriptures in their context? I know, I have the tendency to not do so myself.....But we MUST learn this lesson, or our knowledge of what God is saying through Paul and others will be errrrrrroneous!!!!
To whom is this epistle addressed? Converted Jews...brought up under the Law with it's [physical, material] sacrificial system. In receiving Christ, they forsook the old ways of dealing with sin and embraced the GRACE of God in the death of the perfect sacrificial LAMB of God, Jesus the Christ (see ch. 1-5). But they have become "dull of hearing," though by this time, they should all be able to teach others! Some have been drawn away from the true teachings about the GRACE of God and are headed back to the old way---the works of the Law. This is apostacy (literal meaning- to fall away). From what are they falling away? GRACE. To what are they falling away? *Law & Works*.
When Paul says they are re-crucifying the Son of God, he means in *in essence*---by the use of goats and lambs for sacrificial offerings which had been used as a foreshadow of the perfect Lamb who would come to take away the sin of the world.
I don't think this passage could be applied to anyone today who is still trusting *only* in Christ for the remission of sins. If a "believer" decides to reject the GRACE of God and return to a system of WORKS to gain God's favor, this would be *apostacy.*
Perhaps my wording isn't the best, but keeping the passage in situational context of that day, it's the only explanation I know of that is not at odds with the big picture of truth---the Scriptures.
Your welcome.
Now Dave have you ever put your self in the place of Mr. C ?
BigMack
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