Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Bunch of splitters.
SD
It does little good to say that this is all hypothetical. "If anyone should become apostate..." with the implication that such a problem would never occur. The author goes on to say that he is persuaded of better things of his listeners. What would be the purpose of warning someone of the dangers of apostasy and then, assuring them that "Hey, never mind, it can't happen." It would seem self-defeating.
Others have attempted to soften the language of the author. (Ambrose, Aquinas, Wordsworth, Spicq and others) They say that "impossible" means impossible for man but not for God. But the passage presupposes the work of God with "tasting heavenly gifts..."etc. So to say that the same sentence does not suppose the interaction of God doesn't make sense to me. And to those who point at Mk. 10:27, the notion of "impossibility" has no qualifier here. To follow Erasmus' idea that "impossible" really means "difficult" is just too much to bear. And, a view that I have held in the past doesn't really cut the mustard either. Some say that the passage is in the present tense, which would make them render the passage "it is impossible to renew them to repentance...while they are crucifying the Son of God..." Which F.F. Bruce rightly denounces as "a truism hardly worth putting into words."
Bruce goes on to make a great point, if one takes the participles (crucifying and putting to an open shame (one word)) as causal then that indicates why they are unable to be brought to repentance. Thus, the RSV and the NEB translate it to the effect of "since they crucify the Son of God on their own account."
The situation that the author is addressing is not a particular sin or even a combination of sins. It is the attitude of the heart that he is addressing. An attitude which shows up with a scorn for Christian faith and belief. So that even an act of adultery coupled with murder, as King David committed, does not necessarily imply apostasy. How do we know? We have Psalm 51.
1 John 5:16 speaks of a sin that is a "sin unto death." Mk. 3:29 also gives the warning against "eternal sin." This is, of course, the response of Christ to the charge that he was casting out demons through Satan's power. By shutting out the power of the Kingdom of God which had come among them and by attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan, these religious professionals showed a clear hardness of their hearts to the truth. They made a clear display that they were enemies of the light that came to men. That they were part of those who tried to shut out that light. Calvin comments on Mk. 3:29 - "He is referring to a complete falling away from the gospel, in which the sinner has offended God not in some on respect only but has utterly renounced his grace."
So, the author is not addressing sin in our passage in Hebrews so much as an attitude of the heart. Not a sin of those who are "ignorant and wayward" (Heb. 5:2) but of those who "sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth" (Heb. 10:26). The picture of the Israelites who "did not enter into rest" despite being the chosen because of their "hardness of heart" is repeated time and again throughout the book.
Phillip Edgecumbe Hughes' Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews is a great book and the source that I used for this post. Questions are welcome.
I think God does already know (that whole omniscience think I take seriously). I also think that I know that if I died right now, I would be in His kingdom.
And to answer another question you didn't ask - Rams win the Super Bowl.
I missed your original Mr. C post. Could you repost it or freepmail it to me? Or just give me a post #.
If by "fall" you mean that they purposely choose to avoid the gifts of God and though they once believed, have now decided that it's a bunch of hooey and have decided to publicly mock their earlier faith and "crucify Christ" (figuratively) for their own good, yes.
2671
SD
-ksen
Notice he didn't say which Super Bowl. ;-)
SD
SD, we must all be ignorant then, and you must not be too bright for asking our opinion on things, but by your statement above, we have to assume several things,
1, Are the saints, in heaven and aware, or still asleep.
2, Are they able to listen to these still on earth,
3, Does God allows them to accept prayers from those
still on earth?
4, Does God consider it necrophilia?
5, Do They have nothing better to do with their time?
6, In their enlightened state of awareness, do we look like fools to them, praying to dead people?
7, Do we have to pray out loud for them to hear?
8, Do they have omniscience powers, to read our mind?
9, Do other Spirits/Angels have to translate the silent prayers to them?
10, Do they have power to do anything about it?
11,Since only the Catholics believe in praying to the dead, are the Protestants off partying some place while the ex-catholics have to stand duty 24 hours a day hanging over the listening rail?
Forgive me if I don't like the way you phrased this. You cannot "lose" it like you lose your keys when you try to find them in the morning on your way out the door. You cannot "lose" it like you "lose" a check as it goes through the laundry. You can, through no lack of efficaciousness of the grace of God, but through a lack of a desire or a change of desire to pursue a relationship with God, decide to walk away from a belief and a faith which you once held. Note that I pointed out that this does not happen to people who "mess up." Not even people who "mess up bad" (see King David). This happens to people who attribute the work of God to Satan. This happens to people who LIKE crucifying Christ and shaming Him.
I don't believe someone truly saved could do this though, do you. Because it would be impossible to bring them back because Christ died ONCE for all.
Becky
The nearest one (is that cryptic enough, I'm trying to make it a Sybilline Oracle)
Jim, Havoc joined these two issues together and they should not be. I was disussing live, on earth, Christians praying to God, in Heaven, directly, for mercy for the "dead" (to us earthlings), suffering in Purgatory. I will gladly look at your questions about asking the "dead" who are in Heaven for their prayers at a later time. For now I wish to talk about Purgatory only and not mix the two together.
If a fellow Christian needs help I think God would look favorably on us praying for mercy for another.
4, Does God consider it necrophilia?
You might want to revise this. ;-)
SD
The writer of Hebrews seems to think so, IMO. Here's a side question to ponder while hoping it doesn't distract too much from the question at hand. Why did Jesus choose Judas as a disciple? Was Judas never a believer? Did he never accept Christ's teaching? Why on earth did he hang around then? Or was it all just a big play where God knew Judas was going to make a deal to kill Jesus and kept him around for that?
Nearest to what? St Louis?
(If your guys go undefeated this year it's only because they don't have to visit Heinz Field.)
SD
I don't mean to give offense. I have to leave for the day so I would like to take this up with you tomorrow.
Until then, have a good night.
-ksen
800, since God knows whether we will make it or not, would he call someone who he already knows will fail, thereby condemning him to eternal Hell?
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