I didn't confuse the issues. You made a swipe and I straightened it out. You brought in the issue in your prior post by way of inferrance that I think it wrong for people to pray for one another (the same language you use to defend the sin of communing with the dead). So, let's not just let you get away with miscoloring what's happening here.
I made no mention of praying to the dead. I was talking about praying to help fellow Christians in Purgatory. I didn't bring the issue in, you did because you misunderstood what I was talking about.
And if one dies and puts on incorruption as the Bible says, there is nothing corrupt to be removed by a purgatory.
For the second time today, you have just described Purgatory in passing. This is it. It is the putting on of incorruption. I wish that some day you would at least understand that which you reject.
And how does the RCC somehow know that praying for people who need to be there for x amount of time can get that time prayed down?
...then turn right around and tell people that if they pray for someone in purgatory, their time *will* be reduced. If one pays for a mass for someone in purgatory, their time *will* be reduced.
Once again, you fail to have the slightest understanding. There is no "time" associated with the process of Purgatory. Folks aren't guaranteed less "time" in Purgatory for specific actions. You simply are unteachable. You will not listen to what I say and feel you have the privledge to bloviate all over this forum about things that ARE NOT SO. I really wish at some moment before you die that you take the time to understand at least one thing about the religion that you hate so much. You hate a caricature and you will be held responsible for it.
And the saddest thing is that good Catholic folks everywhere will pray for your "learning curve" in Purgatory to be gentle and all of your Protestant friends will have abandoned you when you most need to be a part of the Communion of Saints.
SD
No, you made a moronic charge about something that you said offended me. And I shot it down and gave an example of something that does offend me. You lept off the cliff side with it. And I'm not wishing you a soft landing. I'm just advising that your attacking me on the way down by throwing your parachute at me. When you hit bottom, you might want to take inventory of what you broke.
For the second time today, you have just described Purgatory in passing. This is it. It is the putting on of incorruption. I wish that some day you would at least understand that which you reject.
"The Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the sacred scriptures and the ancient traditions of the Fathers taught in Sacred Councils, and very recently in this Ecumenical Synod, that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the alter" (Council of Trent sen 26).
"The mass is the propitiary sacrifice for the living and the dead, and the souls in purgatory are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the alter" (Council of Trent Ses. 25, Can. 30)
"The mass is the unbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ" (Baltimore Catechism Q. 363)
"When God forgives us, he forgives thoroughly and asks nothing in return...Though God does not demand that we make up for our sins, there is a necessity within ourselves to do so.." Wilhelm 289-90
"If at our death we have not yet made up for our sins, we must make up for them in the next life, by passing through the state called purgatory." Wilhelm 291
"We cannot make up to Christ, for he has totally forgiven and forgotten our sin, but we can make up to him in other people.." Wilhelm 307.
"Theology has no complete answer as to how, or even whether anyone may be damned forever.." Wilhelm 289
"Like 'heaven' or 'hell', the word purgatory refers to a place and a state. Catholics believe that purgatory exists to purge those souls who are not yet pure enough for heaven and its vision of God but who have not died in a state of serious (mortal) sin. Such near-saints must undergo the pain of intense longing of God until they have paid the debt of temporal punishment due them because of their sins on earth.. In a word, purgatory exits to make saints who will be ready for the purity of God's presence. If one does not succeed in becomming a saint on earth but yet escapes eternal hell, he is purified in purgatory.." Rosten 47.
"Purgatory is the state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins." -Baltimore Catechism.
citations:
Wilhelm, Anthony J. "Christ Among Us: A Modern Presentation of the Catholic Faith" New York: Paulist Press, 1973
Nihil Obstat: Rev. Thomas G Lumpkin, Censor Librorum 4.4.72
Imprimatur: John Cardinal Dearden, Archbishop of Detroit 8.11.72
Rosten, Leo Calvin "Religions of America" New York: Simon and Schuster, 1975.
Now my response:
Rev. 14:13:" And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow * them."
Eccl.12:7:" Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
(see also Luke 16:22-31 ", Philip. 1:23)
Psalm 49:7 "None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: [8] (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever:) "
(see also II Tim. 2:12; Acts 10:43; Eph. 2:8-9).
Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"
Hebrews 10:14 "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
Romans 8: 1-2 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Colossians 2:13 "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"
The Scriptures are clear. Jesus died for all our sins and is faithful to forgive that which we repent of and do no more. The wages of Sin is death. But those who remain obedient, walking a righteous path before the Lord, truly walk the narrow path. In following the will of God one does not sin and seeks rather to root out all temptation to do so. One cannot be saved and ignorant of sin in their lives. So dying in sin is an act of willful disobedience. Sin condemns us; but, Christ sets us free. Once set free, there is no longer condemnation as long as we walk after the Lord's spirit and will. Those who fail to walk after the Spirit and will of God have no such protection from condemnation nor any promise of Heaven.
If Jesus forgives all, there is nothing a Christian has left to be free of at death if he is truly Christian. If One is not Christian at death, they are sulfer jockeys. That is the word of God. No in between anywhere in the Bible - none. Sin condemns to Hell, Sinlessness grants heaven. No mention of purgatory, no such thing as purgatory. Purgatory is a LIE of the DEVIL. It is propounded to make sinners think they have a chance if they just give the church money and con others into wasting their time praying for a dead person who is already judged by the word.
I usually try to avoid your's and Havoc's replies to each other, but it's a slow night and I read this one, and have a question? Am I misunderstanding, or is it just a dig at Havoc, or do you believe we "protestants" (how I hate that term) are going to be in purgatory?
Becky