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Birds Didn’t Evolve from Dinosaurs (Evos forced to invent an even older common ancestor!)
CEH ^ | June 9, 2009

Posted on 06/09/2009 5:33:16 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts

June 9, 2009 — “The findings add to a growing body of evidence in the past two decades that challenge some of the most widely-held beliefs about animal evolution.”  That statement is not being made by creationists, but by science reporters describing work at Oregon State University that cast new doubt on the idea that birds evolved from theropod dinosaurs.  The main idea: their leg bones and lungs are too different.    

Science Daily’s report has a diagram of the skeleton showing...

(Excerpt) Read more at creationsafaris.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: Oregon
KEYWORDS: antiscienceevos; belongsinreligion; birds; catholic; christian; creation; darwiniacreligion; dinosaur; dinosaurs; evolution; flamebait; fools; godsgravesglyphs; goodgodimnutz; intelligentdesign; piltdownman; science; storkzilla
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To: YHAOS

Wrong. It is you who want to use a “special” definition of creationism. I am using the definition you find in the dictionary.

Creationism: the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.

All Christians believe the world was created by God. That doesn’t make all Christians creationists.

The Pope for example is not a creationist, but is most certainly a Christian.


181 posted on 06/11/2009 5:55:13 AM PDT by allmendream ("Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be redistributed?")
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To: muawiyah
“A Day to wait in ABSOLUTE ZERO!”
The scripture does not say that the Earth was created without any heat.

182 posted on 06/11/2009 10:53:54 AM PDT by Fichori
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To: Fichori

The Scripture failed to say it was! If it’s not in there, then it’s not in there.


183 posted on 06/11/2009 11:27:08 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
“The Scripture failed to say it was! If it’s not in there, then it’s not in there.”
Oh no!

There wasn't any heat or cold until after the flood!

What's a poor plant or animal gonna do without any temperature!

Oh the Hugh Manatee!
184 posted on 06/11/2009 11:40:51 AM PDT by Fichori
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To: Fichori

The “heat” starts with the arrival of the Sun. That occurs in the first creation story right after the arrival of the plants (who then spend the evening in total darkness ~ no Sun ~ on a cold planet without heat).


185 posted on 06/11/2009 11:50:25 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
“The “heat” starts with the arrival of the Sun.” [excerpt]
Does it actually say that the Sun gives heat in Genesis 1?

Or did you just assume that it did.

186 posted on 06/11/2009 11:58:43 AM PDT by Fichori
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To: Fichori
If the behavior of the Sun were different at that time than it is now, I'm sure God would have called that to Moses attention like "Say, Moses, way back then, the Sun was so hot it didn't need to shine to make it so hot your sweat will never touch the ground".

So, sticking to the schedule set forth in Genesis, one little sticky wicket at a time, the birds are already flying around BEFORE there are land animals. There's no where for them to land and lay eggs.

The mind can run rampant around that one of course.

BTW, one of the reasons to stick to the wickets in the most exacting manner is that this involves the FIRST SEVEN DAYS, and if you can't get them correct how you gonna' get the next 6000 years right? Fur Shur you don't want to be adding nonsense to the text about new fangled notions of scientific research, right?!

187 posted on 06/11/2009 12:15:19 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
“If the behavior of the Sun were different at that time than it is now, I'm sure God would have called that to Moses attention like "Say, Moses, way back then, the Sun was so hot it didn't need to shine to make it so hot your sweat will never touch the ground".” [excerpt]
Like in Genesis 8:22 where God mentions heat and cold for the first time...

“So, sticking to the schedule set forth in Genesis, one little sticky wicket at a time, the birds are already flying around BEFORE there are land animals. There's no where for them to land and lay eggs.” [excerpt]
So the birds need land animals to land on to lay eggs?

Um, okay...

“The mind can run rampant around that one of course.” [excerpt]
Perhaps they landed on the beached aquatic mammals to lay their eggs and then quickly moved them to dry ground?

“BTW, one of the reasons to stick to the wickets in the most exacting manner is that this involves the FIRST SEVEN DAYS, and if you can't get them correct how you gonna' get the next 6000 years right?” [excerpt]
Can you point out where heat or cold is explicitly mentioned in the first seven days?

After all, you were the one who said ‘The Scripture failed to say it was! If it’s not in there, then it’s not in there.

“Fur Shur you don't want to be adding nonsense to the text about new fangled notions of scientific research, right?!” [excerpt]
Hey, you are the one saying there was heat before its mentioned.
188 posted on 06/11/2009 12:36:42 PM PDT by Fichori
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To: Fichori
God's own shorthand ~ "light". Our word "heat" is merely a reference to a very low frequency light.

God could very well have used our modern terms of course (being omnipotent and omnipresent God can know these things).

189 posted on 06/11/2009 12:39:22 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
“God's own shorthand ~ "light". Our word "heat" is merely a reference to a very low frequency light.” [excerpt]
Now your just making stuff up!

God used the word for heat in Genesis 8:22 when He wanted to indicate heat.

The word he used for light in Genesis 1 is a different word.

Heat and light are not synonymous.

“God could very well have used our modern terms of course (being omnipotent and omnipresent God can know these things).” [excerpt]
Are you gonna play by your rules or not?

Either there was no heat until after the flood, or there was heat from the beginning and it was just not recorded as such.

190 posted on 06/11/2009 12:53:19 PM PDT by Fichori
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To: Fichori
God is free to use whatever words He wishes. Today we know there's a continuum of electro-magnetic frequencies, and we use different words for different parts.

Apparantly Moses forgot to take notes on the other parts, like X-rays, ultraviolet, visible spectrum, etc.

Can't blame him though ~ lot of stuff to absorb in a short time.

191 posted on 06/11/2009 2:08:39 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
“Apparantly Moses forgot to take notes on the other parts, like X-rays, ultraviolet, visible spectrum, etc.

Can't blame him though ~ lot of stuff to absorb in a short time.”
[excerpt]
Then you can't rule out the Earth being warm from the beginning.

I mean, God didn't say he created Adam warm.

Was Adam created at zero Kelvin?
192 posted on 06/11/2009 2:16:52 PM PDT by Fichori
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To: Fichori
Adam was created AFTER the plants and AFTER the Sun. The problem here is that with the plants created BEFORE the Sun, and absent a local "light source" (Sun, Moon, created next day) knowing what we now know about "light", the plants would have been doggone cold.

We are allowed to "know what we know now" and reflect on those same things when they occur in Genesis, but we can't change the order in which they appear.

That would CHANGE THE TIMELINE of the FIRST SEVEN DAYS.

193 posted on 06/11/2009 2:26:53 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
“Adam was created AFTER the plants and AFTER the Sun.” [excerpt]
But Genesis 1 doesn't explicitly say the dirt was warm yet.

If the Earth was one big block of ice on day four, there is no way that it could have warmed up by day six.

If the Sun had put out enough heat to warm the earth to body tempreture, everything would have been scorched shortly after day eight.

“The problem here is that with the plants created BEFORE the Sun, and absent a local "light source" (Sun, Moon, created next day) knowing what we now know about "light", the plants would have been doggone cold.” [excerpt]
So how long did the oceans take to melt?

Did the waters melt in a single day?

Or could the fish swim in ice.

“We are allowed to "know what we know now" and reflect on those same things when they occur in Genesis, but we can't change the order in which they appear.” [excerpt]
Hehe, yeah, that'll go real far.

“That would CHANGE THE TIMELINE of the FIRST SEVEN DAYS.” [excerpt]
If the oceans were 0 degrees Kelvin on day 2, and on day 4 the Sun was made, and then on day 6 Adam was made at which point the oceans were, say, 60 degrees Fahrenheit (288 Kelvin), then logically on day 9, the oceans Earth would be 579 degrees Fahrenheit (577 Kelvin) and everything would be burnt to a crisp. (Mmmmm, crispy critters)

You might want reconsider the possibility that God created an Earth that was warm. (remember, the the Earth has a molten core, and the Sun didn't melt it)
194 posted on 06/11/2009 3:09:26 PM PDT by Fichori
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To: Fichori
At the same time we're pretty sure the ancients had no idea how big the Earth was, nor how far it was to the mantle (where it really starts to get really hot).

Sure, they had volcanoes around, but they don't hold a candle to the real stuff.

A number of writers have tried their hand at creating "world ships" (great vessels that travel between the stars) that meet the requirements set forth in Genesis.

They keep running up against the problem of "the sequence" ~ really hard to deal with it.

Personally I think Moses lifted these stories from existing documents and tablets he had right there in Egypt ~ plus, he prayed a lot ~ plus, he had visions ~ plus he wasn't a very good astronomer, nor geologist, and he had no idea about the fact he was living in an interglacial during a very large and long Ice Age.

Otherwise he'd taken better notes.

Eventually we'll find the tablets he used, or ones like them, that have "versions" of these stories that are very close to the Hebrew traditions. Father Abraham, came from the part of the world where writing was invented. Must have blown Moses mind when he came across some of the old stuff the Hebrews were hauling around.

195 posted on 06/11/2009 3:38:55 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

So you’re saying that the Earth was probably created warm?


196 posted on 06/11/2009 3:42:02 PM PDT by Fichori
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To: Fichori
Not really. I think it was just another self assembly job ~ stuff accreting together, probably at first as a gas giant (hence its close position to the Sun), with the rocky core consisting of precipitation out of the atmosphere as the young earth circled the Sun gathering heavier materials.

Finally, the Sun toked up, blew with an enormous solar wind for millions of years, and stripped the Earth of its gaseous envelope.

One of the last acts before "life" seems to have been the iron catastrophe, where virtually all the iron and heavier metals SANK to the center.

Place started cooling down after that with the lighter metals such as calcium and sodium radiating away surface heat.

I've always been intrigued that the "face of the deep" and "formless" appear in Genesis and are yet satisfactory descriptors for a large gas giant planet like Uranus or Neptune, or early Earth. Tells me there's more to those stories than mere guesswork ~ that behind them there's "intelligence" that is trying to impart important information to us but at a remove in time that makes Moses seem more like a local boy from New Jersey.

197 posted on 06/11/2009 3:56:16 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
“Not really.” [excerpt]
Um, hot potato meet cold feet?

Oh well, you tried ;-)
198 posted on 06/11/2009 4:06:23 PM PDT by Fichori
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To: Fichori
First by Ice, then by Fire.

The whole thing precipitated out of a cold cloud of gas which was made hot by gravity. We presently live on one of the larger clumps.

But back on the 6000 YEC proposal, it doesn't work and it leaves too many questions unanswered.

The timeline is certainly in error or God changed the characteristics of "light" somewhere in the middle of the Creation.

The YECers know that too. That's why their leadership takes pains to try to discredit the idea that gas can be compressed into a liquid and/or solid.

199 posted on 06/11/2009 4:10:06 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
“But back on the 6000 YEC proposal, it doesn't work and it leaves too many questions unanswered.” [excerpt]
Actually, what we were discussing was irrelevant to the overall age of the Earth.

And you are right, how you interpret it doesn't work!

“The timeline is certainly in error or God changed the characteristics of "light" somewhere in the middle of the Creation.” [excerpt]
An exegetical interpretation of the Genesis timeline is fine.

But when you start reading stuff into it that isn't there, well, then it gets really fruity.

“The YECers know that too.” [excerpt]
Just because you cook the books to break the Genesis timeline, doesn't mean its broken, it only means you cooked the books.

“That's why their leadership takes pains to try to discredit the idea that gas can be compressed into a liquid and/or solid.” [excerpt]
Thats a strawman because everybody knows that you can liquefy stuff like oxygen and nitrogen.

Can you point me to a demonstration where someone compressed hydrogen into a solid at room temperature?

200 posted on 06/11/2009 4:27:20 PM PDT by Fichori
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