'Sanctions' sought in President's Eligibility case

WorldNet Daily ^ | Feb. 13, 2009 | Bob Unruh

[SvenMagnussen]

A high-powered team of Los Angeles attorneys representing President Obama in his effort to keep his birth certificate, college records and passport documents concealed from the public has suggested there should be "monetary sanctions" against a lawyer whose clients have brought a complaint alleging Obama doesn't qualify for the Oval Office under the Constitution's demand for a "natural born" citizen in that post.

The suggestion came in an exchange of e-mails and documents in a case brought by former presidential candidate Alan Keyes and others in California. The case originally sought to have the state's electors ordered to withhold their votes for Obama until his eligibility was established. Since his inauguration, it has been amended to seek a future requirement for a vetting process, in addition to the still-sought unveiling of Obama's records.

[canaan]

These are all stipulations for an adult aged 18 or older, if I read this correctly. Are there some for children?

[Beckwith]

Sorry red Steel — my apologies — that post was meant for Michael Michael — my bad!

[Michael Michael]

The provision is, that ‘all persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens.’ That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof?’ Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means.

And what was the subject at that time? Indians. And why weren't Indians "subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof"? Because the Indians were sovereign nations. They were outside of our laws. We could not legislate against the Indians. We instead made treaties with them, just as we do with every other sovereign nation.

Here, here is more of what Trumbull said regarding Indians and why they were not subject to our jurisdiction, including what he said just prior to the other Trumbull quote you vomit up out of context:

Can you sue a Navajoe in court? Are they in any sense subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States? By no means. We make treaties with them, and therefore they are not subject to our jurisdiction. If they were, we would not make treaties with them. If we want to control the Navajoes, or any other Indians of which the Senator from Wisconsin has spoken, how do we do it? Do we pass a law to control them? Are they subject to our jurisdiction in that sense? Is it not understood that if we want to make arrangements with the Indians to whom he refers that we do it by means of a treaty?

Does the government of the United States pretend to take jurisdiction of murders and robberies committed by one Indian upon another? Are they subject to our jurisdiction in any just sense? They are not subject to our jurisdiction. We do not exercise jurisdiction over them. It is only those persons who come completely within our jurisdiction, who are subject to our laws, that we think of making citizens; and there can be no objection to the proposition that such persons should be citizens.

Again, Trumbull was speaking specifically of Indians. And can immigrants in the US be considered anything akin to the Indians in any of the respects that Trumbull mentions here?

No.

Can you sue an immigrant in the US in court? Yes.

Do we make treaties with immigrants in the US? No.

Do we have jurisdiction over murders and robberies committed by a US immigrant upon another? Yes.

Are immigrants in the US subject to our complete jurisdiction? Yes.

Again, you take Trumbull's words completely out of context and attempt to apply them to a group of people who bear no relation whatsoever to those he actually is talking about.

The question was specifically raised in the debates whether or not the children born to non-citizen immigrants were to be considered citizens. And it was specifically stated that they were. The issue was never spoken of again.

All you're doing is just throwing words up as a smokescreen, trying to convince those who don't know any better.

...not to leave out what Senator Bingham's said about it...

Bingham wasn't a Senator. He was a Representative. Nor did he say anything about the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. You are utterly clueless on the matter.

[DMZFrank]

I am fascinated by the contortions that the Obamunists resort to to defend their position. I am certainly willing to concede one or two points to the troll, others I submit are best tested at trial, with competent counsel for both sides slugging it out. This nation has NEVER been in this position before (even the troll ought to admit that) and this deserves a proper judicial determination rather than this chidish rant of “you have no evidence!!!!.” (not true at all BTW) Double Mike is advocating the non-disclosure and concealment of a police state rather the the disclosure and revalation consistent with a free republic. More information is better than less, particularly involving the legal status of goverment officials. Especially those seeking to hide something!!!

[Beckwith]

I think I better go to bed now — it’s wayyyyyyyyy past my bedtime.

[canaan]

I understand, which is why I wish we had a source for whether he was adopted. While a good lead, it still seems the speculation level to assume citizenship because a child changed from one school or another. Do we have the 1960’s Indonesian paperwork somewhere that said you have to be adopted to go to the public school? I mean, I hear people saying that a lot, but where is the source?

[Beckwith]

You’ve been reasoned in your arguments.

It is natural to have differences of opinion and understanding but the two Michaels is unreasonable and argumentative.

Once he stooped to the ad hominem attacks, his cover was blown.

It’s the same with No Sequitur and mlo and a few others that are infesting these threads.

[Albertafriend]

I know. It can be very confusing to know what is true and what isn’t. I’ve been following this thing since at least the beginning of July. Thank goodness we have someone like Chief Engineer doing so much good research and digging up good reliable information. As for my two pregnancy pictures no one would ever know I was pregnant because in one I am sitting down and in the other one I have on my winter coat that pretty much hid everything. So if anyone was trying to prove I was pregnant just based on photographic evidence it would be rather difficult. But for Ann we have seen no pictures from that time so it is even more impossible. But you never know what is going to show up from one day to the next.

[Michael Michael]

Re: whether or not he was ever granted INDONESIAN citizenship.

My understanding is that he had to have been an Indonesian citizen to attend the Besuki Primary School, since Indonesian state schools were restricted to citizens.

That is why Obama attended the Assissi School, a private school, prior to his adoption.

Well, I don't know what to tell you except that the bottom line is still the fact that Indonesia didn't allow for dual citizenship and US nationality laws didn't allow for the loss of US citizenship as the result of adoption.

[Michael Michael]

Not once he announces he's a candidate for PUBLIC office.

Sorry, there's no exemption in any of our privacy laws for people running for public office.

[DMZFrank]

I’m getting in touch wih a laywer buddy with a specialty in international adoptions. I will put the question to him as to whether or not Soetero Sr. could renounce his US citizenship as a condition of adoption and Indonesian residency. He’s got 23 years experience.

[little jeremiah]

Bookmark.

[Michael Michael]

You're wasting you time with this troll DMZ. That statement proves he is an unhinged liberal who would scream if anyone referred to Obama as a chimpanzee.

I could care less what anyone calls him. I'm libertarian, not liberal.

I have been reading your exchanges and you two may disagree, but DMZFrank is presenting his arguments reasonably, as an adult, while Michael Michael resorts to childish personal attacks.

I just calls 'em as I see 'em.

[DMZFrank]

That document is just about 50% of D’onofrio’s case, ain’t it????

[canaan]

Oh, excellent. And if he has knowledge of the rules when Jr. was born, that would be even better.

[Michael Michael]

What about the relevant federal law under U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), and Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325 (1939)? Casaelaw does play a role.

Only insofar as interpretation may go. It doesn't change the fact that citizenship of the United States comes exclusively from the Fourteenth Amendment.

[Red Steel]

Not clueless enough to know you're an Obot spewing forth BS.

I was the very first poster to post to you asking if you were a troll? You said, No, I'm not a troll. I just didn't like didn't like people ganging up on mlo.

You further stated that you had no interest in politics just in graphics and Polarik's analysis of Obama's COLB was wrong.

You come out of the blue to post on birth certifigate/certifigate threads. You lied. You do care about politics and are protecting the Obama with obfuscations, lies, and other assortment of BS.

[Michael Michael]

OK, well, there’s something I don’t understand then. What if Stanley, 2nd husband, and Jr. lived in Indonesia from when Jr. was 6 until.... forever. 2nd husband is already Indonesian, and let’s say Stanley becomes a citizen.

This whole time, Jr. (with 2 Indonesian parents) would have to remain an American citizen, living in a land he (in this scenario) considered his own, especiallly since he had only lived 6 years in America. In what way, at what point, would he ever be allowed to become an Indonesian?

As long as Indonesia maintained a ban on dual citizenship, then he couldn't become an Indonesian citizen until such time that he lost his US citizenship, which he could have done after becoming an adult and renouncing his US citizenship.

My point is, there must be some way for a child to become an Indonesian citizen....? A foreign child adopted here in America becomes American. Why wouldn’t Indonesia have some sort of similar process for interested families?

Perhaps they do now. But back when Obama was there, Indonesia didn't allow for dual citizenship.

[little jeremiah]

I am sure that MM is not a volunteer.

[Michael Michael]

I’ve been reading your posts.

Are you a paid Obama agent or a volunteer?

Nope. I'm just someone who's been discussing politics online for over 25 years, and have found this particular issue interesting enough to spend some time (sadly more than I should) discussing it. Simple as that.

If you don't believe me, just grab an IRC client or find a Java-based client online, drop on over to #politics on Undernet IRC (a channel I started there some 15 years ago), tell 'em "Trall" is a paid Obama agent, and see how long you last. ;)