Posted on 05/07/2007 11:36:09 AM PDT by bedolido
CBNNews.com - Virginia Beach, Va - Before the celebrating came the turning of tassels and accepting this charge:
"I want you to strive for greatness through service," said CBN founder Pat Robertson.
The largest class in Regent's history sang a hymn bowed their heads in prayer.
"Father," prayed Pastor Jack Hayford. "We come with hearts of gratitude for each of these graduates."
{snip}
Some say they were initially skeptical about having a Mormon address a Christian audience.
"There were some people who were alarmed," said Regent graduate Cassy McLauchlin. "I was surprised because I just didn't think he was the speaker we would have here, but they let us know he wasn't coming to speak on any theological issues but he was coming to address us at graduation."
(Excerpt) Read more at cbn.com ...
Exclusion by special definition1 What is a Christian? The term is found three times in the New Testament (Acts 11:26; Acts 26:28; 1 Pet. 4:16), but it is not defined in any of those passages. According to Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, the term Christian may be defined in a number of ways, but the most common is “one who believes or professes … to believe in Jesus Christ and the truth as taught by him … one whose life is conformed to the doctrines of Christ.” The second most common meaning is “a member of a church or group professing Christian doctrine or belief.”
Under either of these two definitions, Latter-day Saints qualify as Christians. However, if a special definition is created under which Christian means “only those who believe as I do,” then others might claim Latter-day Saints aren’t Christians—but all this would really mean is that while Mormons believe in Christ, we don’t believe exactly as they do. Excluding us in this way by inventing a special definition for the word Christian is like defining a duck as an aquatic bird with a broad, flat bill, webbed feet, and white feathers, and then concluding that mallards aren’t ducks because their feathers are the wrong color.
If the term Christian is used, as it is in standard English, to mean someone who accepts Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God and the Savior of the world, then the charge that we aren’t Christians is false. However, if the word Christian is given an overly narrow definition, then it is merely a way of saying LDS Christians differ in some degree from other Christians. No one “owns” the term Christian or has the right to deny it to others who worship Jesus as the divine Son of God.
“a member of a church or group professing Christian doctrine or belief.”
A good summary of which can be found here: http://www.sundayschoolcourses.com/basictheology/index.htm
This seems to be one of the most popular charges in modern anti-Mormon literature.Though Christ is the creator of this earth and our one and only Savior and is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, He shares something with us in that we are all spirit sons and daughters of God (Heb. 12:9; Acts 17:28; Numbers 16:22) as is Christ (see also Hebrews 1:5,6; Heb. 2:9-12; Matt. 12:50; Col. 1:15; Psalms 89:27; Romans 8:29; Rev. 3:14). Christ differs from us in that He alone was perfect, serving as was Co-creator with God and as Savior of all mankind (all who will accept Him). Yes, technically, Satan is the brother of Christ, but so are all of us and all the angels, both good and fallen. But anti-Mormons want to make this doctrine sound scary by leaving out the information that would explain our position, and suggesting that somehow we worship a false "Mormon" Christ who is like Satan. Ugh!
It's a Biblical doctrine that Satan was in heaven originally but fell from heaven. Here is an excerpt from the article "Satan" in Smith's Bible Dictionary:
Of the nature and original state of Satan, little is revealed in Scripture. He is spoken of as a "spirit" in Ephesians 2:2; as the prince or ruler of the "demons" in Matthew 12:24-26; and as having "angels" subject to him in Matthew 25:41; Revelation 12:7, 9; The whole description of his power implies spiritual nature and spiritual influence. We conclude therefore that he was of angelic nature, a rational and spiritual creature, superhuman in power, wisdom and energy; and not only so, but an archangel, one of the "princes" of heaven. We cannot, of course, conceive that anything essentially and originally evil was created by God. We can only conjecture, therefore, that Satan is a fallen angel, who once had a time of probation, but whose condemnation is now irrevocably fixed. As to the time cause and manner of his fall Scripture tells us scarcely anything; but it describes to us distinctly the moral nature of the evil one.As for our common heritage with Christ as sons of God, the teachings of the Bible are clear. In Romans 8:14-18, I see Paul saying that our divine heritage from God is what makes it possible for humans to become "joint heirs with Christ." Though we may be potential "joint heirs," Christ is always and eternally our Savior.Latter-day Saints also believe that Satan was a spirit being in the premortal existence that we all shared, who, as Revelation 12:7-9 describes, rebelled against God and was cast down to earth, with those angels (spirits) who followed Satan (see also Jude 1:6, 2 Peter 2:4). Lucifer (Satan) was in heaven and was "a son of the morning" (Isaiah 14: 12-15) who sought to usurp God's glory and throne, rather than follow God's will (see also Job 1:6, where Satan comes into an assembly among the sons of God - these sons of God, premortal spirit children, existed before the creation of the earth was completed, according to Job 38: 4-7).
Just as we see the potential for great goodness and great evil in humans around us, so has there always been such potential among the spirit children (Heb. 12:9) of God who are blessed with liberty to choose God and Christ or to choose evil. Satan chose the greatest evil possible and still works toward that end. That he was in heaven and was a "son of the morning" among the spirit beings there ("morning stars" in Job 38:7) makes his fall and his guilt and his eternal punishment all the more terrible. But our understanding of who Satan was and is - a fallen angel, by choice a total and complete enemy to God and Christ - does not make us unchristian, in my opinion. Nor does it give us any respect for that abominable being!
Simply saying that "Mormons think Christ and Satan are brothers" is a distortion of LDS doctrine - it is deliberately misleading. We see all of humanity and all of the angels - fallen as well as divine - as creations of God, spirit sons and daughters, given freedom to choose good (through Christ) or evil. Christ is obviously a Son of God, though much more completely than we are. He is also our Savior and even our Eternal Father in several ways. Our common relationship to those who are Good and those who are truly evil in no way impugns the Good or blasphemes God and Christ.
Obviously, Latter-day Saint doctrine is not derived from the popular teachings of mainstream churches, but I see it as being in harmony with the Bible, though others are free to interpret the Bible differently. But I hope you won't mistake differences in interpretation with a rejection of Christ, to whom I look for salvation.
“The Nicene Creed is fundamental to Christian belief.”
I’d like you to quote the Nicene creed for me and tell me where in it contradicts with Mormon belief. In fact, quote the Latin, which is probably the more accurate. I think you will find the Mormon belief in the Trinity does not contradict that of the Nicene creed.
The definition of “one-in-three, three-in-one”, and “person(s)” has been a long-standing debate in Christian history. The belief of the Mormons in the Godhead is not unique, in fact, many Greek Orthodox Catholics may feel comfortable with some of the Mormon teachings of the Godhead. A traditional Trinitarian, when reading only the Book of Mormon, would probably feel very comfortable in its teachings as well.
The ground that Mormons have however is that of what they believe to be a Prophet of God, argue as you may, who which claimed to see God the Father, and Christ the Son as two *separate* personages. The two, while one in purpose and unity, are not “mysterious” to the Mormons. They have the word of a Prophet in this time and dispensation to rely on, not the ancient compiled writings of the creeds of men. The fact is, they don’t need the Nicene Creed, whether accurate or not, to tell them who the Godhead is.
Is this Christian? Well, was Moses Christian? Was Peter Christian? Were their followers Christian? It all comes down to a belief in whether Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God or not. True, False Prophets come as “Wolves in Sheeps’ Clothing” - Mormons believe this too. I believe if you read it further it says you will “know them by their fruits”. I urge all to look at the fruits of the Mormon Church - that is how you will know us and whether we are Christian.
BTW, what does any of this have to do with Romney’s candidacy? He’s a good man, with good values. I don’t see anyone quoting the religion of McCain, or Guliani, nor do I see anyone even questioning their values. Mormons keep getting criticized for playing the “persecution” card. Well, I don’t think we can debate otherwise until we see others start criticizing the Baptists, or the Presbetyrians, or the Catholics, or the Methodists - they all have different interpretations of the Bible. Why aren’t we criticizing the other candidates for their interpretations of the Bible? Heck, I don’t even know what religions the other candidates belong to - do you?
I guess this is the part that I have a hard time understanding from some of these folks. If you read the bible, you’ll notice that the Lord never speaks unless it’s through his prophets/mouthpieces who received direct revelation. Were any of the writtings in the bible not received by revelation? Christians believe the bible to be the word of God & justifiably so. Yet when it comes to so many of their beliefs, they rely on “the arm of the flesh”.
Those that participated in the council @ Nicea made no bones about the fact that they recieved no direct revelation or devine intervention when putting together the Nicean Creed. But b/c of the long standing “traditions of their fathers”, “Christianity” often chooses to rely on the words of men from centuries gone by who claimed no devine inspiration as the word of God. They even claimed the heavens were & are closed.
Much of what is found in the Creed is nowhere to be found in the bible. But b/c some “wise” men argued back & forth & finally said this is how it is, many today, centuries later, believe it is so. You may find many things objectionable about the Mormons but at least they believe their beliefs came as direct revelation from God rather than from knock down drag out at the Nicean corral. If you read the bible carefully, the “trinity” as espoused in the “creed” really makes no sense at all when taken in context w/ the scriptures that say the exact opposite, i.e. Christ’s visit w/ Mary when she visited the Tomb. Many so called Christians knock the Pharisees for their lack of belief & understanding & yet commit the same errors themselves. They too followed the traditions of their fathers. The pharisees believed too that the heavens were closed & that they had all scripture that was needed.
What if Christ appeared today & taught the gospel different than what is found in the “creed”, there might be many who would do just as the pharisees did. Both groups might have some explaining to do in the end. Best wishes to all today.
"And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church"
We agree with the Holy and Apostolic part just not the Catholic. BTW, Mormons are the only Christians I know of who actually claim to have Apostles.
Very well said. I also will let Jesus Christ be the Judge on Judgement day as to whether or not we as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints followed Him and His teachings. From 2 Nephi 10:24
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.
He came to restore the higher knowledge that covanant Israel had lost which included the knowledge of who He the Messiah was, lost truths and his Higher law (ie Melchizedek)
Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 1:4:6-10, in NPNF Series 2, 1:87-88. Compare also the following:
"The law and life of our Saviour Jesus Christ shows itself to be such, being a renewal of the ancient pre-Mosaic religion, in which Abraham, the friend of God, and his forefathers are shown to have lived. . . . Yes, and equally with us they knew and bore witness to the Word of God, Whom we love to call Christ. They were thought worthy in very remarkable ways of beholding His actual presence and theophany. Eusebius, The Proof of the Gospel, 1:5, vol. 1, 25-26."
As a restorationist Church of the original Primitve Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ we actaully believe quite a few things that don;t fit within modern "orthodoxy" (A word found nowhere in the Bible)
From the link for those who care.
Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity by Barry Robert Bickmore
Introduction A Restoration Church Joseph Smith--The Prophet Of The Restoration A Bold Claim and an Exacting Test Methods
Apostasy and Restoration The Apostasy--A History The Apostasy Foretold The Apostasy--Rebellion in the Church "The Last Time"--The Totality of the Predicted Apostasy The Loss of Apostolic Authority in the Church The Rebellion Continues Hermas and the Final Curtain Call Politics and Christianity Floundering in the Dark Directions of Apostasy Jewish Christianity Gnostic Christianity Catholic Christianity Christianity in the Greek World The Influx of Greek Philosophy Philosophy vs. Revelation The Effect of the Apostasy The Loss of Spiritual Gifts The Necessity of Spiritual Gifts Grasping At Straws The Montanist Crisis The Closing of the Canon of Scripture Missing Scripture? Which Scripture? Editing the Scriptures Interpretation of Prophecy Without Prophets? The Necessity of a Restoration The Restitution of "All Things" Elias and the "Restoration of All Things" The Angel of the Restoration Chapter Notes Note 1: Upon This Rock . . . The Gates of Hades Further Objections A Witness to the Wickedness of the World Note 2: Monasticism-Replacing the Spiritual Gifts
The Doctrine of God and the Nature of Man The LDS Godhead vs. the Mainstream Trinity The LDS Concept of the Godhead The Godhead of the Bible One God or Three? What Kind of Being is God? The Mainstream Trinity The Nicene Creed "Of One Substance" More on the "Being" of God From "the One True God" to "the One" The God of Israel and the God of the Philosophers The Abandonment of Anthropomorphism The Anthropomorphic God of the Bible Anthropomorphism in Early Christianity The Son Becomes the Anthropomorphic God "God is a Spirit"-That is, Corporeal Allegorical Interpretation The Transcendent God Creation "Ex Nihilo" The Adoption of a New Doctrine The Earliest Christians and Creation Reasons for the Change A New Terminology Theological Implications of Creation Ex Nihilo Joseph Smith on the Creation From Godhead to Trinity The Problem of "Monotheism" Yahweh-Prince of Angels, Second God Jesus as Yahweh-Prince of Angels, Second God The Subordination of the Son and Spirit Problems With Subordinationism The "Word" Becomes the "Logos" Jesus Becomes an Abstraction A Portion of the "Divine Substance" The Impassible Logos The "Only Begotten" Son The Monarchian Crisis "Of One Substance" The Arian Crisis The Council of Nicea and its Aftermath The Mystery of the Trinity The Origin and Destiny of Man The Premortal Existence The Latter-day Saint Doctrine The Pre-Existence of Christ The Pre-Existence in Early Christianity The Loss of the Doctrine of Pre-Existence Deification Deification in the Bible Deification in Early Christianity Objections to the LDS Doctrine Objections Answered The Deification of God Conclusion: The True Nature of the Universe Chapter Notes Note 1: The "Angel of God's Presence" in Abraham 1:15-16 The "Angel(s) of the Presence" Jesus as Yahweh and the "Angel of the Presence" Conclusion Note 2: The Pre-Existence in Judaism
Salvation History and Requirements Adam and the Fall Adam and Eve-the First Members of the Human Family Adam and Michael The Necessity of the Fall Original Sin and Original Guilt The Mainstream Doctrine of Original Sin Latter-day Saints and Original Sin The New Testament and Original Sin The Sinful Nature "Total Depravity" and Predestination Original Guilt The Road to Salvation in Mortality Dispensations-a Gospel for All Ages Christianity Before Christ Degrees of Truth The Law of Moses and the Gospel The Loss of the Doctrine of Dispensations Faith, Grace, and Works All Have Sinned Salvation by Grace By Grace Through Faith Faith and Works Eternal Security? The Bible Says "No!" Eternal Security? The Fathers Say "No!" Baptism The Necessity of Baptism Baptism by Immersion Infant Baptism The Laying on of Hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost From Death to the Resurrection The World of Spirits The Spirit World in LDS Thought The Spirit World in Early Christian Thought An End to the Torments of Hell Bridging the Gulf of Separation The Preaching to the Spirits in Prison Mainstream Christian Avoidance of the Issue The Early Christians on the Preaching Mission Baptism for the Dead Baptism for the Dead According to Paul Baptism in the Spirit World Baptism of Resurrected Beings-A Variation on the Theme Baptism for the Dead Among the Cerinthians and Marcionites Baptism for the Dead as an Esoteric Rite Objections to the LDS Practice of Baptism for the Dead The Resurrection The Resurrection Body in the New Testament Christian Confusion About the Resurrected Body Joseph Smith on the Nature of the Resurrected Body The Early Christians on the Nature of the Resurrected Body The Power of Embodiment The Millennium A Literal Millennial Reign Spiritualizing the Millennium Three Degrees of Glory and Outer Darkness The LDS Doctrine of Degrees of Glory Sun, Moon, and Stars as Types of the Degrees of Glory More Ancient Witnesses to the Three Degrees of Glory Other Systems of Multiple Heavens Outer Darkness The Loss of the Doctrine of Degrees of Glory Chapter Notes Note 1: Adam's Vision of His Posterity Note 2: Translated Beings Note 3: Worlds Without End
Church Organization and Life Church Organization Priesthood Authority The Necessity of Ordination The "Priesthood of All Believers" The Priesthoods of Aaron and Melchizedek Specific Priesthood Offices Apostles and Prophets The Seventy Patriarchs Local Officers High Priests after the Order of Melchizedek The Purpose of Priesthood Offices Church Life The Lord's Day Worship The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper Water, Wine, or Water and Wine? Changes in the Doctrine of the Sacrament Anointing the Sick Tithes, Offerings, and the United Order Consecration and Tithing Fast Offerings
The Temple Esotericism and the Latter-day Saints Why Secrecy? Esoteric Doctrines and the Latter-day Saints The Endowment Esotericism in Early Christianity Esoteric Doctrines Secrecy in the New Testament Secrecy in the Post-Apostolic Church The Content of the Secret Tradition Secret Rites Baptism and Eucharist as "Mysteries" Were There Other "Mysteries"? "Orthodox" Christian Rites: The Mysteries of Clement The Secret Tradition Transmitted in a "Mystery" The "Drama of Truth" The "Ring-Dance" or "Prayer Circle" The Linen Garment The Secret Teaching "Orthodox" Christian Rites: The Later Rituals of Baptism and the Eucharist The Renunciation of Satan Initial Anointing and Baptism Second Anointing The White Garment The Prayer Circle Passwords and Signs Third Anointing The Sacraments Become Exoteric Gnostic Christian Rites The True Gnosis The Gospel of Philip The Pistis Sophia, the Two Books of Jeu, and Related Documents The Acts of John The End of Esotericism The Fight Against Gnosticism From Gnosticism to Mysticism Trivialization of the Esoteric Doctrine Augustine and the End of Esotericism Heavenly Marriage
Eternal Marriage LDS Belief and Practice The Reticence of Jesus Early Christian Evidence Changes in the Marriage Doctrine Plural Marriage Polygamy and the Mystery of Marriage Heavenly Mother The Hebrew Goddess Heavenly Mother in Jewish Christianity The Gnostic "Sophia" The Female Aspect of God in Catholic Tradition Chapter Notes Note 1: Jewish Esoteric Rites Essene Initiation Year Rites Instruction in the Mysteries Note 2: Gnostic Jewish Esoteric Rites Note 3: Greek Mystery Religions Note 4: Masonry & Mormonism Note 5: Mixing of Ritual Elements Conclusions Appendix: Descriptions of Ancient Documents and Writers
The Vatican believes that Schism is a state of sin. They refer to all other Christians as “daughter churches” that have gone astray.
Though former doctrine was that all non-catholics are absolutely hell-bound, the last Pope amended that view greatly.
Regardless- Mormons are Christians, and only Morons may disagree.
I don't know what Mormons believe and never claimed to know. There are a lot of bizarre beliefs assigned to them on this thread, but not by me.
The doctrinal exclusionThis type of argument claims that since the Latter-day Saints do not always interpret the Bible as other Christians do, we must not be Christians. But, in fact, other denominations also differ among themselves doctrinally, and it is unreasonable to demand that Latter-day Saints conform to a single standard of “Christian” doctrine when no such single standard exists.
For example, the Latter-day Saints are accused of worshiping a “different god” because we do not believe in the traditional Trinity. “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost” (A of F 1:1) as taught in the New Testament. What Latter-day Saints do not believe is the non-Biblical doctrine formulated by the councils of Nicaea (A.D. 325) and Chalcedon (A.D. 451) centuries after the time of Jesus—the doctrine that God is three coequal persons in one substance or essence. We do not believe it because it is not scriptural. As Harper’s Bible Dictionary states: “The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”
Jesus didn’t teach the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity. The New Testament writers didn’t have any idea of it. The doctrine itself wasn’t invented until centuries later. So one can’t say the Latter-day Saints are not true Christians for not accepting it, unless one also excludes Jesus, his disciples, and the New Testament Church, who similarly did not know or teach it.
Or, say, an apostate “Catholic” Presidential candidate who disagrees with even the basic church premise that Abortion is murder, and who has shown no public repentance or acknowledgment of guilt over his three marriages and several affairs.
Yeah.......he’s okay. Let’s get snippy about an unadulterated family man who’s a Mormon, instead.
I don’t want to get into my theological differences with Mormonism, or anything touchy like that. But give me a freaking break - if you can invite an apostate Catholic, or say, a Liberal Protestant who doesn’t even really believe Scripture to be God-breathed, then getting uptight about the faithful Mormon is pretty inconsistent.
Good grief, living the example should count for something too - not just your Baptism certificate alone.
that was exactly what i was thinking. i would prefer a good, godly Mormon who adheres to his religion than a Catholic, someone of my own faith, who is not faithful to its tenets.
You mean kind of like the “new” revelation that came to Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob? Maybe even kind of like the “new” revelation that came with Christ? The scriptures talk about prophets that are without honor in their own house. Would you have been one who stoned the apostles b/c they had taught something different than that which was accepted by the “mainstream” of the day, those that claimed no revealtion? Would you have mocked the prophets of old b/c the conventional wisdom of the day was that there were no more prophets & that God didn’t speak to his people anymore?
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