Did The Ancient Greeks And Native Americans Swap Starcharts?

Live Science ^ | 6-12-2005 | Ker Than

[blam]

Did the Ancient Greeks and Native Americans Swap Starcharts?

Author Ker Than

I had a story on SPACE.com yesterday about a very cool discovery: a one-thousand year old petroglyph, or rock carving, that was found in Arizona and which might depict the supernova of 1006, or SN 1006. The carving is presumed to have been made an ancient group of Native Americans called the Hohokam.

The researcher who made the discovery argues that symbols of a scorpion and stars on the petroglyph match the relative positions of SN 1006 to the constellation Scorpius when the star first exploded.

Well, after I wrote the article, a lot of thoughtful readers wrote in with a very good question: Scorpius is an ancient Greek invention, so what are the chances that Native Americans living more than an ocean away looked up at the night sky and also saw in the stars the outline of a scorpion?

As one reader succinctly put it:

“There are three possible solutions to this: Either the Hohokam people had the same name for the constellation as the Greeks, there was significant contact between North America and Europe prior to this date, or the petroglyph is a fake and does not date to that period.”

So which is it? Is the petroglyph an example of a cosmic coincidence, a hoax or startling evidence that the ancient Greeks and Native Americans had contact with each other?

I passed the question along to John Barentine, the astronomer who made the discovery. Barentine’s reply below:

[Jedi Master Pikachu]

Because common assumption is that they couldn't or wouldn't, although, granted, the Greeks were known for seafaring, while Amerindians generally weren't. However, there does seem to be a tendency for some to consider the West as being the only peoples who were adventurous or who explored (if not outright that they were solely responsible for almost all technology).

[RegulatorCountry]

In Judaism, Christianity and Islam, the explanation (regarded as apocryphal in Western Christianity) is that knowledge of how to interpret times, signs and wonders in the skies was given to the people of Earth by the "watchers," who were supernatural/extraterrestrial/angelic beings, who ultimately came into opposition to God, due to their meddling and interbreeding with His creation. Land in the Antediluvian world was not separated by oceans; it was contiguous. The climate was quite different then, with rain being unknown and flora being nourished by mists that arose from the ground. So, in these religions, such knowledge should be present in all peoples, since it was taught prior to whatever caused the deluge and the breakup of what modern science has come to refer to as "Pangaea." The writings regarded as apocryphal by western Christianity that describe this are The Book Of Enoch (I, which has been confirmed as being authentic, having been found at Qumran, and not II, which is believed to have been written in the Middle Ages), The Book Of Jubilees and The Book Of Jasher.

[Spirited]

Jasher and Jubilees are referred to by quoting from them in the Christian cannon.
They were considered cannon before politics took them out.

[Publius6961]

Has anyone seen an overlay showing how the marks on this rock "coincide" with the real sky and the location of the suoernova?
Without any leftover elements?

[From many - one.]

Agree, Lots of those "ritual hunting magic" scenes were quite likely big brother impressing little brother with his hunting prowess or mom showing the kids where dinner came from.

[From many - one.]

I've looked at some of theother signs on the rock and they are also suggestive of contact. To the right of the nova is a squiggle, followed by a curved line followed by a shape.

Try this sequence for size:
scorpius, nova, ophiuchus (snake symbol), saggitarius (bow symbol), capricorn (ram's head)

Breaks down on the extreme right...can't get that rake shape to look like a water bearer.

[gregwest]

Any Mormon will smile and tell you about an ancient record that recounts the migration of a small colony of Jews from Jerusalem in 600 B.C. who came to the Americas. We take it as a matter of faith, that the Book of Mormon is a true record. It is always interesting to see the odd "coincidences" that appear as archaeologists discover such odd items as clay pan pipes tuned to the musical scales of the Mediterranean area or something like this supernova drawing. Someday, historians will recognize the connections between this colony of Israelites, the peoples of the ancient Americas, and the inhabitants of the Pacific Islands.

[Global2010]

Why not even consider that the Ancient tribes 5yr old kids were writing on the walls?

[fish hawk]

Excuse me but scorpions are all over the world and they all look pretty much alike. The constellation of Scorpio is the one constellation that actually looks like its name. Only people like ancient Eskimos etc. would not know what a scorpion looked like as there are no ice scorpions that we know of.

[From many - one.]

Tell you what.

Take some bright college students in a desert area, show them a picture of that part of the night sky (not just the constellation, about 90 degrees worth) and ask them what animal shapes they see, if any.

If I remember, I may try it today at work.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks Blam.

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[Covenantor]

I see a record of the fabulous grudge match of the Scorpion (ctr. left) and the Tarantula ( ctr. low note the 8 legs) which was refereed by the Bull (ctr. rt.).

The smaller 8 legged figure just above the Bull and the Tarantula was the ring girl.

The stick figure to the rt. of the Bull indicates that they are in round two. Note the open triangle representing the priceless World Bug Trophy.

Anyone who has done the sacred Peyote knows this. Just ask Carlos Castenada, he saw it all.

But, then again, I see strange things in ink blots test. But hey, they're not my pictures.

[eleni121]

Why couldn't the Indians have come to the Greeks?
______________________________________________________

Because Greeks were prodigiously literate people...nothing written ever found to point to any contact.

[Ptarmigan]

I remember reading somewhere that American Indian genes have been found in Greeks.

[will_scalp_you_sioux]

I agree, "Why didn't the Indians come to the Greeks?" I must question also, if the Bering Strait bridged from Asia to North America, wouldn't it also stretch from North America to Asia too?

[will_scalp_you_sioux]

In response to, "Why not even consider that the Ancient tribes 5yr old kids were writing on the walls?" First of all, did you mean, "Why not even consider that it could have been that ancient tribes had 5 year old kids writing on the walls?"

Funny how I'm Native but speak better English.

Anyway... it is amazing how fast non-Indian people dismiss anything that Native people knew before Europeans. My grandmother, who was a Sioux woman, when she heard of new scientific findings would often say, "We already knew that." There is so much education that most of you on this post have obviously missed out on... pity and shame on the adult for not "ever even" bothering to find out.

[FreedomCalls]

We already knew that.

[Global2010]

Yeah My Samar Filipino Mom said the same thing, even to the extreme that we never got to see a Dr. I had to go on the bus to get care...funny now she is 87 she takes all the White Mans pills to stay healthy and I refuse them.
Funny.

So my English writing is poor.
Well Partner ya got me there.
Sorry it does not intend to get better, either.

[SunkenCiv]

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[No Truce With Kings]

“
Decades ago I read something in Scientific American that seemed to indicate Native American bow technology came by way of Asia,”

Did it say anything about where Obama bow technology came from?”