U.S. Brings Back the .45

Strategy Page ^ | January 27, 2006

[John Jorsett]

After two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense is getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as “official alternatives” to the M9 Beretta. But now SOCOM has been given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs are being evaluated, but all must be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 will also have a rail up top for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length must be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.

The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense plans to buy 645,000 JCPs.

SOCOM will, with input from other branches, handle the evaluation and final selection. This will take place this year, and if the military moves with unaccustomed alacrity, troops could start getting their JCPs next year. But don’t hold your breath.

[ExSoldier]

Just change the bullet to a hollow point and the 9mm would do the trick.

yeah, but they won't DO that. However if it were to happen, just how much more effective would a 45 JHP be? Everything is shot placement anyway. Could issue 22LRs and if we could be sure the troops could make the cranio-ocular shot everytime, it'd be fine. That being said, this is as much about troop perception as anything else. As long as the troops have the idea that a 45 will knock a man off his feet or blow his arm off they're gonna want that security blanket. Even if it comes in a FMJ. Because compared side by side, the 45 ball beats the 9mm ball everytime. Face it, in the realm of infantry combat if the bad guys get close enough to use a handgun, something has gone very badly wrong indeed. The possible exception being of course the tight quarters of clearing rooms or caves. Here, a 45 1911 ot better a 45 H&K with ah attached SureFire Gunlight would be superb.

[TXBSAFH]

No, computers.

[Chode]

.45 ping...

[Euro-American Scum]

So is my Springfield Armory .45.

So is my Para Ordnance P-14.

[Recon Dad]

Awesome pistol, a little heavy. They could do worse. The only complaint I've heard is if you're humping 100 to 150 pounds for a while every ounce counts.

[yarddog]

Usually, the gun threads on FR are pretty good. Lots of useful info and the odd misinformation gets corrected courteously and accuratetly.

This one tho, is about as bad as it gets.

First of all, the old 1911 is a little difficult to field strip but is probably the easiest gun ever made to detail strip. I can't imagine it being considered difficult to maintain.

Whoever said a 9mm hollowpoint is basically as good, is correct. All this bashing of the 9mm eventually gets to me. Of course for whatever reason, the miltary will not use hollowpoints so the .45 is the logical choice.

Anyone who thinks the .45 is inaccurate is simply wrong. I don't think it is the inherent accuracy of the round but the amount of work done in developing super accurate target models. Still even the run of the mill military models are prettty good.

Anyone who thinks the Berretta in unreliable is off about as bad as is possible. It is maybe the most reliable pistol made with the possible exception of the Sig P226.

I don't care for the Beretta because of it's fat grip and don't care for the Rugers because of the awkward trigger reach, but they are both fine guns for someone whose hand fits them.

They could do a lot worse than simply going back to the original M1911 with whatever advancements they need to add to it.

[John Lenin]

Personally, I like the 357 over the 45.

[SandRat]

Going back to one of the good ones now for the others with a real PUNCH!

[Recon Dad]

They build each M1911 from scratch for each guy in Force Recon.

[ExSoldier]

I've had both a Glock M30 and the larger M21. I loved them both, but speaking as a former Infantry Captain, I still take the H&K USP due to the ability ot carry cocked and locked OR DA hammer down. Just a little bit more versatile.

[Fatuncle]

It was a standard issue M1911 .45 out of the armory. Maybe just a bad pistol, but man was I unimpressed, compared to a Beretta 9mm I've fired and hit small targets 25 meters away.

It may have been badly worn. I've fired one that was so bad off I damn near could have done better throwing the weapon at the target. But one in good shape is accurate.

I personally prefer a .22 mag for targets and plinking (which is about all I do) and don't like the .45, as it is noisy, boisterous, difficult-to-control piece of iron.

But then, I don't carry it into combat.

[1FASTGLOCK45]

I've got a Glock .45, I luv it!
I am looking to get a rifle next, going to try to head over to the gun store today to get some magazines (the ones you read) and browse at rifles. =)

[hiredhand]

Er...actually...and don't hold me to this....

But I don't know any IPSC reloaders who would double charge a case. In fact, about 99% of any double charged pistol cartrige will result in catastrophic failure FIRST time, every time. Also, I do believe that a double charge is practically guaranteed to damage the weapon! It takes far less to just blow a case head. :-)

HOWEVER....there was a great mystery back around 1990 or so whereby a lot of IPSC shooters were blowing up good guns (mostly Colt Series 70s) and for a time, nobody could figure out why. From what I read, a great majority of the blow-ups were light loads. Somebody (and please forgive me for my lack of references here because it's been a LONG time) finally concluded that it was a phenomenon called "flash-over". I remember reading that they were able to reproduce it as well, at least to some degree.

From what I understand, flash-over is where a very light load spreads itself out along the inner case wall when the weapon is lowered to a horizontal position to fire. It was determined that this presented a LARGE area by which to produce a flame front via primer ignition. Then, instead of having a flame front consisting of the inner diameter of the .45ACP casing, there was one that could extend the length of the inside of the casing! In short, TOO much ignited TOO fast, building TOO much pressure, and *ka-boom*. We know the rest of the story. :-)

But anyway...that's what I remember about IPSC shooters having a bad rap for blowing up .45ACPs. :-)

[ExSoldier]

Original "Trench Broom" Nope the original trench broom was the Winchester pump shotgun used in WWI.

[hiredhand]

Very good. :-) It's nice to know that somebody gave "personal attention" to a sidearm which could very well save your life!

[ExSoldier]

More killing power than a .45ACP

More recoil and noise, less capacity and a heckuva lot more finicky in a combat environment that an military semiauto. Tougher to reload under pressure, too.

[Paul_Denton]

The 9mm x 21mm developed by IMI might do the trick. But still, for sheer killing power I would go for the 45 ACP.

[Recon Dad]

I don't give him advice on this subject. If he says he wants the guy to be stopped I'll take his word for it and since without exception they carry .45's I will take that to mean they don't want what they are hitting getting up and shooting at them.

[Westlander]

Yep, he probably doesn't know about loading ramps.

[ghostcat]

These are not myths, these are facts. Any time you have a case failure you run the risk of a catastrophic failure to the gun. At the very least the gases venting into the frame will usually damage the ejector and blow the magazine out the magazine well, damage will also usually occur in the trigger Assembly. This can and does happen to many makes if the case is not supported correctly. When you are dealing with pressures of 20,000 psi(standard 45 acp is around 21,000 psi) or higher amazing amounts of damage can be done.
As for design changes in the glock, all you need to do is look at the chamber end of the earlier glock .45 barrel and compare it to a current manufacture .45 barrel, you will find that the case is much better supported in the current barrel. Now that may constitute a design change in your mind, but it most definitely does in mine.